Texas open carry bill has changes

2

Replies

  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    "So you're a street cop and you see a thuggish looking guy strolling along in the ghetto with a pistol strapped to his waist. What do you do if the open carry law also restricts your stopping and asking for his permit if he otherwise isn't doing anything wrong. I am conflicted on how the street cop should deal with this, and I really don't know what will be done under those circumstances."

    What does "thuggish-looking" have to do with it? Draws a conclusion based on the way someone looks rather than the actions which someone does, which can lead to PC. Combine that (which on its face, is not a crime) with "in the ghetto" (which is not a crime) and you've got a profile that will cause some bad case-law. Got to have more than that. And keep up with court decisions that forbid profiling, racial or otherwise.

    I agree.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,967 Senior Member
    I skimmed through some of this thread and saw the issue about carry permits linked to a driver license.

    I will note for info, some states probably and NC in particular, do link the carry permit to some other form of ID. [valid identification]

    So for most of us and most of you, if you come here it means drivers license because why pay for an ID if you have a DL and I expect
    if the computer record shows a DL they wouldn't issue a state ID.

    It needs an address and picture, that leaves out Mil ID's.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    I skimmed through some of this thread and saw the issue about carry permits linked to a driver license.

    I will note for info, some states probably and NC in particular, do link the carry permit to some other form of ID. [valid identification]

    So for most of us and most of you, if you come here it means drivers license because why pay for an ID if you have a DL and I expect
    if the computer record shows a DL they wouldn't issue a state ID.

    It needs an address and picture, that leaves out Mil ID's.

    I have a small problem with this ID business. To my knowledge there is no State that requires a citizen to carry/possess any identification whatsoever. This is not Mexico or Nazi Germany. If you drive a vehicle you need to carry a valid DL with you. If you're stopped you are required to present this license to the officer upon request. That is State law.

    Quick case in point that happened to me 3 weeks ago. I arrived for a medical appointment in Atlanta arranged by the VA. This facility is contracted by the VA for medical screening. The receptionist asked for identification. My DL was packed in my wallet and I would have had to pull about 15 credit cards and other stuff out to locate it. It just so happened my Georgia Gun Permit was handy, and that is what I gave her. No problem, no sweat.

    My point is that many forms of identification are usually available to most of us, not just a DL. In fact, if a LE officer asks for some type of ID all you have to do is provide your name and date of birth. And, you do not have to do even that.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,278 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    I skimmed through some of this thread and saw the issue about carry permits linked to a driver license.

    I will note for info, some states probably and NC in particular, do link the carry permit to some other form of ID. [valid identification]

    So for most of us and most of you, if you come here it means drivers license because why pay for an ID if you have a DL and I expect
    if the computer record shows a DL they wouldn't issue a state ID.

    It needs an address and picture, that leaves out Mil ID's.

    In AL, CCL is issued by the county, DL by state. I don't want a cop pulling me over to know I have a permit when he pulls me over, I'll tell him myself. I think it may make him jumpy.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    34
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    In AL, CCL is issued by the county, DL by state. I don't want a cop pulling me over to know I have a permit when he pulls me over, I'll tell him myself. I think it my make him jumpy.
    I have never heard of a State integrating gun permit data with drivers licenses or vehicle registrations. That would be a monumental paperwork nightmare and most States are broke! If someone can provide evidence of this going on I would be obliged to have it.

    Also an afterthought. The officer stopping a car is not going to know the driver has a CCW until he makes contact and gets the driver's DL. Additionally, anyone can drive a CCW's car. IF this data is attached to the driver it doesn't matter because the officer could have been allready shot. And IF it is attached to the car, it doesn't mean said driver is the one with the CCW!
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,845 Senior Member
    N320AW wrote: »
    I have never heard of a State integrating gun permit data with drivers licenses or vehicle registrations. That would be a monumental paperwork nightmare and most States are broke! If someone can provide evidence of this going on I would be obliged to have it.
    Reading IS fundemental... At least one state has been mentioned already that DOES link your CHL to "some other form of ID"
    NN wrote: »
    I skimmed through some of this thread and saw the issue about carry permits linked to a driver license.

    I will note for info, some states probably and NC in particular, do link the carry permit to some other form of ID. [valid identification]
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,967 Senior Member
    I will try this again
    in NC you need a CCW to conceal a handgun.

    In NC you need some other form of ID that needs your pic and address.

    If you drive you have that in your DL, if you do not drive you need some other additional ID with pic and address.

    If you think BS or you don't need to tell up front about the gun and permit for any police action and it is not just limited to traffic enforcement; don't come here with your concealed handgun.

    They may take your word or they may want to see the permit and additional ID.



    Since it was brought up in #35 it is tied to the vehicle registration and the dispatcher will tell the LEO when he reports a traffic stop, if anyother
    state ties it to vehicle registrations the dispatcher will see that in the computer, too.

    I have a scanner and I have heard a CCW report given to the LEO often.

    You non believers, believe whatever you want; as I said in post #33 this is info
    use it or don't I really don't care.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    N320AW wrote: »
    34
    I have never heard of a State integrating gun permit data with drivers licenses or vehicle registrations. That would be a monumental paperwork nightmare and most States are broke! If someone can provide evidence of this going on I would be obliged to have it.

    Also an afterthought. The officer stopping a car is not going to know the driver has a CCW until he makes contact and gets the driver's DL. Additionally, anyone can drive a CCW's car. IF this data is attached to the driver it doesn't matter because the officer could have been allready shot. And IF it is attached to the car, it doesn't mean said driver is the one with the CCW!

    I think it's tied to DL in some states, TX (?) being one of them. I've heard of others in passing, don't remember which. It's not monumental paperwork, it's a computer entry in order to "alert" the driver may be armed. Of course, any officer making traffic stops should assume the driver IS armed, either legally or illegally. I seriously doubt it deters bad guys who don't have CCLs. But there it is.

    Edit: think of it the same as an Insurance entry on a DL (10-28) in GA. I think the Clerk of the Courts (and I guess he or she gets if from the Tax Accessor) has access to GCIC entries to add or delete your insurance status. Maybe they are in contact with the dispatchers? who can add the information.) So I guess the issuing official who issues a CCL would enter if the DL licensee has a CCL.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,684 Senior Member
    Sounds like nobody still gets it. The not asking if you have a CHL is a feel good amendment! Any LEO can still ask you for identification without provocation and a state issued ID will tell them if you have a CHL or not. So this amendment really means nothing! Kinda like the little picture of a gun with a circle and a line through it meaning no guns allowed, That is only to make the sheeple feel good and means nothing to a CHL holder.
    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,278 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    I will try this again
    in NC you need a CCW to conceal a handgun.

    In NC you need some other form of ID that needs your pic and address.

    If you drive you have that in your DL, if you do not drive you need some other additional ID with pic and address.

    If you think BS or you don't need to tell up front about the gun and permit for any police action and it is not just limited to traffic enforcement; don't come here with your concealed handgun.

    They may take your word or they may want to see the permit and additional ID.



    Since it was brought up in #35 it is tied to the vehicle registration and the dispatcher will tell the LEO when he reports a traffic stop, if anyother
    state ties it to vehicle registrations the dispatcher will see that in the computer, too.

    I have a scanner and I have heard a CCW report given to the LEO often.

    You non believers, believe whatever you want; as I said in post #33 this is info
    use it or don't I really don't care.

    Perhaps it is tied in NC but not in AL. Registration is a state function, CCL is a county function. Now can he find out by your plate? Probably
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,967 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Perhaps it is tied in NC but not in AL. Registration is a state function, CCL is a county function. Now can he find out by your plate? Probably
    yes----county must submit info to the state
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,278 Senior Member
    Ok, on checking with a local LEO as far as info about CCL, it depends. If the HPD officer has Wifi and E-ticket, the CCL info will pull up with your other info. If no wifi, he has to manually call over the radio for info. They county sheriff always (usually, if they have cell service) has internet access and the ccl info comes right up if it's your county of issue. I stand corrected.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    "So you're a street cop and you see a thuggish looking guy strolling along in the ghetto with a pistol strapped to his waist. What do you do if the open carry law also restricts your stopping and asking for his permit if he otherwise isn't doing anything wrong. I am conflicted on how the street cop should deal with this, and I really don't know what will be done under those circumstances."

    What does "thuggish-looking" have to do with it? Draws a conclusion based on the way someone looks rather than the actions which someone does, which can lead to PC. Combine that (which on its face, is not a crime) with "in the ghetto" (which is not a crime) and you've got a profile that will cause some bad case-law. Got to have more than that. And keep up with court decisions that forbid profiling, racial or otherwise.

    Oh, I agree totally with your points, Gene. I may have overstated the scenario but hopefully you get my drift -- how does a responsible street cop deal with seeing guys wearing Crips bandannas and such, and wearing a pistol at his side, after we have open carry and (I may have read the law wrong here) the LEO cannot simply stop someone open carrying but not doing anything wrong.

    My sympathies are very much on the side of the regular, good, straightforward street cop --- the thin blue line for sure --- and I can see that, without really meaning to do so, the new OC law may tie their hands.

    What are your thoughts on this? Maybe it's not an issue and maybe I am not understanding the tenets of the new OC law.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    N320AW wrote: »
    I have a small problem with this ID business. To my knowledge there is no State that requires a citizen to carry/possess any identification whatsoever. This is not Mexico or Nazi Germany. If you drive a vehicle you need to carry a valid DL with you. If you're stopped you are required to present this license to the officer upon request. That is State law.

    Quick case in point that happened to me 3 weeks ago. I arrived for a medical appointment in Atlanta arranged by the VA. This facility is contracted by the VA for medical screening. The receptionist asked for identification. My DL was packed in my wallet and I would have had to pull about 15 credit cards and other stuff out to locate it. It just so happened my Georgia Gun Permit was handy, and that is what I gave her. No problem, no sweat.

    My point is that many forms of identification are usually available to most of us, not just a DL. In fact, if a LE officer asks for some type of ID all you have to do is provide your name and date of birth. And, you do not have to do even that.

    I've also produced my carry permit when asked for an ID, just for grins. Being Texas, nobody blinked.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    N320AW wrote: »
    34
    I have never heard of a State integrating gun permit data with drivers licenses or vehicle registrations. That would be a monumental paperwork nightmare and most States are broke! If someone can provide evidence of this going on I would be obliged to have it.

    Also an afterthought. The officer stopping a car is not going to know the driver has a CCW until he makes contact and gets the driver's DL. Additionally, anyone can drive a CCW's car. IF this data is attached to the driver it doesn't matter because the officer could have been allready shot. And IF it is attached to the car, it doesn't mean said driver is the one with the CCW!

    In Texas, when they run the plates, it IDs the owner and if an individual and not a company car, etc, it also pops up whether the owner has a CHL.

    Couple years ago I cheated on a red light, got stopped, and when the cop came to my car door, as usual, I sat quietly, both hands on the steering wheel. He asked for my DL and proof of insurance, and I told him that I had a CHL and did have a weapon, my Glock 36 in the center console.

    He said, "I know, got your permit listed when I ran the car tags." So in Texas, CHL is linked to DL and also to the car's owner ID. Some years ago, Texas computerized all their system records and weirdly, knowing it's a government thing, it seems to work pretty well. I renewed my DL and my CHL online, took me about 5 minutes each.

    Cop was very nice to me but still gave me the ticket. I did the online driver's test thingie and got the ticket dismissed, since it was my first driving citation in about 20 years.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    If you think BS or you don't need to tell up front about the gun and permit for any police action and it is not just limited to traffic enforcement; don't come here with your concealed handgun.

    Same here in Texas. If you have a CHL and you are armed (carrying concealed on your person or within reach (like I keep my snubbie in my center console), you are required by law to tell the officer that you have a CHL and have a weapon, if he asks you for ID for any reason. Mostly this is getting stopped for a driving infraction. Like happened to me.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Oh, I agree totally with your points, Gene. I may have overstated the scenario but hopefully you get my drift -- how does a responsible street cop deal with seeing guys wearing Crips bandannas and such, and wearing a pistol at his side, after we have open carry and (I may have read the law wrong here) the LEO cannot simply stop someone open carrying but not doing anything wrong.

    My sympathies are very much on the side of the regular, good, straightforward street cop --- the thin blue line for sure --- and I can see that, without really meaning to do so, the new OC law may tie their hands.

    What are your thoughts on this? Maybe it's not an issue and maybe I am not understanding the tenets of the new OC law.

    Well, my thoughts are if you have Constitutional Carry, which is pretty unlikely in any town that has a ghetto or a gang, you CANNOT draw any LEGAL inferences based on a guy wearing a bandanna. Amendment One protects associations, Amendment Four protects against unreasonable search and seizure.

    Probable Cause will develop, usually, but what you've said ain't it. A guy open carrying in a town/state without Constitutional Carry (which is where this discussion was headed) is a different issue. Still, I'd let the PC develop on its own, which it almost certainly will if the guy is carrying illegally.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Same here in Texas. If you have a CHL and you are armed (carrying concealed on your person or within reach (like I keep my snubbie in my center console), you are required by law to tell the officer that you have a CHL and have a weapon, if he asks you for ID for any reason. Mostly this is getting stopped for a driving infraction. Like happened to me.

    Sam, that law is still on the books, but the legislature pulled its teeth, by removing the punitive action for failure to notify. In other words, it's still technically the law, but if you disobey it, there is no penalty. Sounds stupid, I know, but there it is.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Thanks for the update, bis. I didn't know that the penalty had been removed. As I remember it would result in possibly getting your CHL suspended for 6 months.

    Regardless of the law, I'll always let a cop know that I'm armed. I've got no problems with the LEOs and here, street cops are quite happy about armed citizens -- the rank and file know we're on their side.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Well, my thoughts are if you have Constitutional Carry, which is pretty unlikely in any town that has a ghetto or a gang, you CANNOT draw any LEGAL inferences based on a guy wearing a bandanna. Amendment One protects associations, Amendment Four protects against unreasonable search and seizure.

    Probable Cause will develop, usually, but what you've said ain't it. A guy open carrying in a town/state without Constitutional Carry (which is where this discussion was headed) is a different issue. Still, I'd let the PC develop on its own, which it almost certainly will if the guy is carrying illegally.

    Gene, I'm well aware of the technicalities of the law regarding the 1st and 4th amendments. My point is how the average conscientious street cop could deal with considerable flaunting of open carry by those who are likely thugs, if the law forbids stopping and checking for just open carry and no other visible offense.

    By "thug" I mean those who are wearing gang colors or garb (ballcaps turned a certain way, bandannas, etc) and are hanging out in known drug dealing zones, walking around with a pistol strapped on their waist.

    My question isn't the application of the amendments. It's about how the right-thinking street cop should deal with this. Because if open carry becomes legal and there is no way for a cop to stop and check IDs just by seeing the person carrying, how can the cops handle gang members who want to flaunt their guns?

    You apparently don't think this is a problem at all, or so I glean from your postings (I may not have interpreted your posts correctly). But prior to OC, if a cop saw a "bulge" or other printing, the cop could stop the person and check if a firearm was present. Now, under the new law as I understand it, street thugs can flaunt and carry without fear of being stopped. As I see it, it places new burdens on the cops. Maybe I'm wrong.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    I know of no gang-infected city where OC is permitted so the stated problem is pretty well moot. And I know of no instances where OC with gangs has been an issue. GA has OC (with a license) but I don't know about gangs in ATL.

    You're still tying the right to carry on a completely subjective idea of what a person looks like. That's called profiling and has consistently been held to be non permissible by the SCOTUS.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Well, Gene, I value your LEO experience as I have zero. But I was just stating hypotheticals, since it does appear that Texas will get open carry January 2016 and the new OC law prevents a cop from stopping and asking the OC person for his license just because he's carrying. He must first commit some sort of justification for the stop besides just the OC itself.

    And again, yes, I DO know what the Constitution says and what is not allowed by the 1st and 4th amendments.

    My question again is this: Assuming that the new OC law in Tx prevents stop & ask for just verifying the OC and not for other reasons, what is the average conscientious street cop to to when he sees some Crips or Bloods guy sauntering along w. a 44mag on his hip? Ignore it? I'm sorry but it worries me on the behalf of the LEOs who may be facing this.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    How does being a Crip or Blood make it illegal to own or carry a weapon? Assuming he otherwise has no criminal record. Or being a member of the KKK? As distasteful as these organizations are, can't tie membership in them in to an individual criminal record that specifically prohibits a member from 2nd Amendment rights.

    Sam, you're profiling in the most classic sense of the definition. Thing is, you don't even realize you're profiling and I apparently am not able to make you understand this. It's Acts, not looks that are prohibited.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    N320AW wrote: »
    34
    I have never heard of a State integrating gun permit data with drivers licenses or vehicle registrations. That would be a monumental paperwork nightmare and most States are broke! If someone can provide evidence of this going on I would be obliged to have it.

    Well, FYI, in TN your CCW permit has the SAME NUMBER as your dirver's license. Both are issued by State Department of Safety. And I know as fact that when your license plate is run, your DL and CCW numbers come up on screen. One of my county deputy friends showed me when I asked.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    How does being a Crip or Blood make it illegal to own or carry a weapon? Assuming he otherwise has no criminal record. Or being a member of the KKK? As distasteful as these organizations are, can't tie membership in them in to an individual criminal record that specifically prohibits a member from 2nd Amendment rights.

    Sam, you're profiling in the most classic sense of the definition. Thing is, you don't even realize you're profiling and I apparently am not able to make you understand this. It's Acts, not looks that are prohibited.

    I totally understand that I'm profiling. That's what cops do. They "profile" every day -- they see a grumpy old whitehaired fart like me, with a 100 Club sticker, or a middleage woman driving a Toyota SUV with two kids in the back, or a black guy wearing gang colors.

    Is this a stereotype? Yes. Am I slightly more apprehensive if a shabbily dressed guy meanders up to me rather than an older woman.

    I KNOW it's profiling. I am just asking what the average street cop will do when he sees someone wearing Crips colors and open carrying. And yes, I KNOW it's not breaking the law per se. We've already covered this. But a gang member wearing a pistol is slightly more of a signal for problems than you or I doing the same as we go into Kroger.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    He answered your question here, Sam.
    Gene L wrote: »
    Probable Cause will develop, usually, but what you've said ain't it. A guy open carrying in a town/state without Constitutional Carry (which is where this discussion was headed) is a different issue. Still, I'd let the PC develop on its own, which it almost certainly will if the guy is carrying illegally.
  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,684 Senior Member
    Well it's on it's way to the governor for signature. It is what it is!
    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    The House removed the amendment and passed it in the same form as before, and the Senate passed it, anyway.

    So, Sam, you can relax - police can ask to see the license, without probable cause. No back door to Constitutional Carry (****), and Abbott will sign it.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    The House removed the amendment and passed it in the same form as before, and the Senate passed it, anyway.

    So, Sam, you can relax - police can ask to see the license, without probable cause. No back door to Constitutional Carry (****), and Abbott will sign it.

    Yes, thanks, I saw the info on the news and that they'd removed the restriction and now LEOs will be able to ask for a permit if someone is open carrying.

    And bis thanks for quoting Gene's comments for me, although I did read them the first time. My original question which Gene didn't answer -- if he did then please show me where I missed it -- was not what the LEOs were legally allowed to do or to not do, or what they might be able to legally react to if they see someone open carrying, but it was directed toward how the LEOs would FEEL or what they might THINK about seeing a thuggish guy wearing a pistol on his hip. Not the legalities, which Gene carefully explained to me, citing the 1st and 4th amendment so that I might know they exist (I already do know) but not the legal specifics, but the emotional reactions that street level cops might have to seeing this, whether they might consider this an affront.

    I'm still unclear on this -- how the street cops would feel or what they'd think about such. That was my original query, not the legalities of this but instead the emotional reactions. I'm sorry that I didn't state this clearly enough to be understood.

    And I'm not worried and I'm plenty relaxed regardless, bis, thanks anyway. My concerns were for the street level cops.

    Seems that, with the premise that there must be a license to carry, the open carry law is properly defined now.

    I've yet to hear from those who consider "constitutional carry" an unalterable right (shall not be infringed) on their opinion regarding a felon carrying openly. If the right is totally un-infringed, then it follows logically that even convicted felons can openly carry firearms. Am I correct on that? If not, then let me know, okay?

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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