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JasonMPD
Posts: 6,583 Senior Member
Thoughts on this Vietnam War analysis?
JasonMPD
Posts: 6,583 Senior Member
I've been on a studying kick lately, pulling in information from all over to draw my own independent conclusions about some of the USA's macro and micro political incidents. Part of those independent conclusions stems from perspectives other than my own. Your thoughts on this analysis? The video is only about 6 minutes long.
The Truth about the Vietnam War: https://youtu.be/7hqYGHZCJwk
The Truth about the Vietnam War: https://youtu.be/7hqYGHZCJwk
“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
Replies
Here is a link to the Gulf of Tonkin incident which got us involved in the ground war. In summary, one event never occurred, and in the other we fired first. These events were used by the political class to get us into the war. 57,000 US soldiers killed because some elected A holes wanted to fight a war in southeast Asia. This is not tinfoil hat stuff. It is info declassified in 2005.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident
I no longer hold any animosity towards anyone who "dodged the draft". I would not fight in a made up war to force my world view on another individual either. I can not wrap my head around a mindset that makes up reasons to get our men and women in uniform killed.
I'm aware of how LBJ duped us into the war in the first place, but once we were there and committed to the damn thing, one may as well try and help the freakin South Vietnamese. Nixon's efforts aren't moot to the issue. He promised them this garbage we intervened in would be helped with supplies. Then, the Dems bail on them the INSTANT they have the opportunity to.
What's that make the men that went? I have nothing but hate and discontent for a draft dodger.
Is your contention that if the government says jump, you say yes sir how high?
Do you even realize what the link says? Your government made up the whole dawn thing. These men were sent to their deaths for a lie.
So you believe they should just get on their knees and go because their told to?
As to your other point. Those that went and those that died did so a hero. For your info, my father, and uncle both did tours there, and have the same opinion as I, now that they know the truth.
Can you change a deep seated opinion in the face of new and overwhelming evidence? Time will tell.
The point I was making was the larger issue of getting involved at all. To the point in the video, yes we should honor commitments we make.
Vietnam politics sucked but Mid East politics will suck more, you'll see.
Recoil is how you know primer ignition is complete.
Scary thing, I can see a little of his theory in the way the US has acted in Iraq and ISIS today ... but it is the POSUS doing it now.
- George Orwell
There is NO advantage to losing a war, however flawed the reason for entering the war. I don't see a lot of reasoning behind non-intervention given the politics of then and now.
I suspect tubabucknut is guilty of judging a past situation with the advantage of hindsight. In other words, Monday morning quarterbacking.
Well said. I, also have several relatives who served in Vietnam. They unanimously agree that if they knew then, what they know now, they wouldn't have gone then.
Luis
Although Karnow was a NY Times editor, the book avoids the political rhetoric and focuses on why Indochina became such a focal point in the Cold War.
NRA Endowment Member
If my aunt had balls she would be my uncle.
If I knew then what I know now I would have stayed in for 20.
About 20 years ago, I was asked "if you had known then...." and I thought about it for a bit and said Yes. I would. Can't turn your back on your country, right or wrong. I'm not sure what gives people moral authority to refuse service. Some of the finest men I know served over there.
Kinda like saying ISIS is the Junior Varsity team.
Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
And anybody denigrating the actions taken on that first day with the torpedo boats, I'll tell you flat out that you're a real piece of work for talking smack about something you know nothing about. And as to accuracy of fire from the destroyer, try hitting something as small as a glorified cigarette boat running wide open with guns made for hitting a ship destroyer sized or larger from a rolling and pitching deck. They didn't have GPS guided munitions back then. It's pretty much the equivalent of trying to dove hunt with a .460 Weatherby Magnum. It sucks, and you are lucky to get a direct hit in 1 in 1,000 shots fired. So you run the guns past their rated rate of safe fire to protect the ship, because if it gets shot out from under you, you ain't walking to shore.
The second night when all the firing took place, I will give them a huge benefit of the doubt on that. Having been spooked the day before is good reason not to take chances. Ghost radar contacts were not all that abnormal for surface search radar. If someone shoots at you when you're in International waters, you by gawd got a right to shoot back and try to kill them first.
LBJ did want to get involved in Viet Nam; it was the cold war and the fight to stop the spread of Communism was both warm and hot. There were some shenanigans pulled in the White House after the second 'encounter', and that's a fact. I don't know what the destroyers saw on radar, and don't have any first hand accounts related to me personally, but I still give them a huge amount of leeway in that they believed, rightly or wrongly, that they were protecting their ships, and any Captain who won't act to protect his ship and crew is unfit for command of a harbor tug. I have talked to quite a few destroyer and cruiser sailors who fought sea battles in the Pacific in WWII, and they all feared a torpedo attack from a Japanese sub.
― Douglas Adams
It is my understanding we were in a ground war in Vietnam as soon as we sent advisors in the late 50s. It is just no one wanted to realize it.
If you look at the string of events from Yalta to the fall of the wall in 1989, the Vietnam war was necessary to arrive at the events of 1988-1999.
And Yes, if your country calls you to defend democracy, no matter where it is, you go. That's what Americans do. That is what we have always done since before we were a nation of 50 years.
There is a difference between your nation calling you to defend democracy and asking you to jump....
JAY
In the 50s there was a lot of talk abut sending advisors to Vietnam to protect the Michelin rubber plantations and the gas and oil reserves in the Gulf of Tonkin.
JAY
Unfortunately, not any more. The sniveling cowards too self-centered to put on a uniform, who make up 98% of this nation now hide under the bed and suck their thumbs. Brave men and women like you and other active duty patriots, and the citizen soldiers of the National Guard suit up and go willingly into Hell to protect their sorry butts! Whiz on all of them!
Jerry
1. Strategic
2. Operational
3. Tactical
From a strategic aspect I question why we were there to begin with, though at the time I was totally in support of our efforts. I marched in support of Lt. Calley after Mei Lai or however it is spelled. I volunteered for duty in 'Nam, but the Navy had other plans for me. (Some of us had to keep an eye on Ivan, you know
From an operational standpoint our hands (the military) were tied, largely, by the politicians for some reason that I don't fully understand. I had little involvement in the War beyond doing Intel work on the POW-MIA situation, but it was very evident to the active military on the ground at the time as well as to those like me, little involved and serving in other areas of defense, that we could have successfully from a "tactical" standpoint kicked ass and come home very quickly. Our hands were tied, operationally, for strategic reasons I don't comprehend.
Tactical: Mike covers this very well with his observations on tin cans being torpedo targets. If you are put in a situation where you are a target for destruction, kill first and be very effective with it. It's that simple....just like carrying concealed.
But bring all of this to the table right now.....In my opinion, "My Country, My Country. May She always be right, but My Country even though She may be wrong"!
Khrushchev repeatedly wanted the U.S. to withdraw troops from foreign soil and Russia would do the same. I would like to think Nixon and others realized if we did that, Russia would keep their word, but would use their proxy nations to expand the influence they couldn't.
Just like at Yalta and subsequent conferences, Russia didn't go back their word but they didn't keep it either.
Vietnam had to happen. The U.S. Had to show the world it would wage war for democracy and interests. The U.S. also had to continue bleeding the Russian war industry and economy. If Afghanistan would not have come along, I have no doubt the next proxy fight would have been in central or South America.
And then, the dumb ass American people have let the Dummycraps do it again in the Middle East! For one thing the Dummycrap Commies just couldn't stand that a Republican Regime had tamed a Muslim country and allowed the freedom loving people there opportunity to have a much better life. There outta be a special place in Hell for these Commie Jerks!!!
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Tuba, Me thinks ye been brain washed.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.