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Embrace The Truth - Catastrophic Gun Failure

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  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Last time I bought those, they only cost me $50 or so. Not bad if you want to use them.
    You have astigmatism? I do and I've found it adds to the cost. Sometimes considerably because mine is "just strong enough to raise the price."
    Overkill is underrated.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    On one of the forums he claimed (as I quoted) that he was on the ground bleeding and his buddy found the gun laying next to him and they never could find the case. Why he posted a picture of the rifle with the action closed and only a broken stock as evidence kinda puts his credibility in question with me.
    Ah, I missed that. And good point.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    You have astigmatism? I do and I've found it adds to the cost. Sometimes considerably because mine is "just strong enough to raise the price."
    I have a slight one. Just enough to where it doesn't raise the cost.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I have a slight one. Just enough to where it doesn't raise the cost.

    [grumbles under his breath at the sasquatch/]
    Overkill is underrated.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    Too many unanswered questions already brought up here that need answers. I have an old T/C Contender, and a T/C Encore made long before the sale of T/C to S&W. They both lock up extremely tight; lockup is so tight on both that they are a bit difficult to open. They both have never, EVER, been subjected to loads that are maximum on the load data with handloads because it isn't necessary. I find the most accurate load for each chambering, and that is rarely more than 1 grain past midpoint in the load data.

    The rifle being loaded with a load 2 grains over max seems to be what I would think is the nub of the problem and cause of the failure of the rifle, lacking any other pertinent information on the failure. That two grains of powder over max loading could have easily spiked pressure to failure levels of pressure on the rifle. And even safe max loads at 70° can be grenades at 90° and/or the ammo has been sitting in the sun and heated up. Some powders are sensitive to cold and hot temperatures; cold reducing pressure, and heat wildly spiking pressure.

    As to the question about hunting with safety glasses, my glasses for vision correction have always been made with safety lens material; kill two birds with on rock, as it were, and I don't have to wear goggles over my glasses in the shop. But in the shop, I do wear side shields that attach to the frames. I have some serious astigmatism, but my insurance pays for all but the self darkening lens part.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • toymachinetoymachine Senior Member Posts: 761 Senior Member
    If I were in the market for prescription eyewear, I'd strongly consider upgrading to impact resistant lenses in my everyday glasses. Unless your eyes are rapidly changing, it's an investment that should last several years. Of course, I've never been all that style conscious, when I need a new set of sunglasses I head to the local autoparts store and pick up some tinted safety glasses.
    "Is 'milk bottle' literally a racist term?"
    "It is now." - Jack Fraggs
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    81 gr. of H1000 has a pressure of 52,900 CUP per Hodgdon. Max pressure of the cartridge is listed at 54,000 CUP
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Brian WardBrian Ward Member Posts: 60 Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I think the stock being broken could be the result of action or barrel failure and gas being directed into the stock. Nearly every failure I've seen pictures of shows the stock in shambles. If I'm not wrong, I'd bet if you blow the pic up you'd see metal failure that lead to the stock being blown off. Just my guess.

    Brian, is it possible for you to briefly describe what happened?

    I don't really know what your asking for.
  • Brian WardBrian Ward Member Posts: 60 Member
    cpj wrote: »
    We're you using hand loads or factory ammo?

    I used both factory and handloads. The failure happened with handloads.
  • Brian WardBrian Ward Member Posts: 60 Member
    bisley wrote: »
    What was the argument used by TC to attempt to prove they were not at fault? What evidence was used to overcome that argument?

    We don't want to re-try the case, but this is important in deciding whether or not to risk ownership of a TC. You have our attention - now we need a Q&A session.

    Please note this was 10 years and tons and tons pages of evidence, discovery and expert testimony.

    Very briefly summarizing, in my opinion T/C Arms defense was that I did not follow the warnings in the manual (safety glasses / and handloads) therefore voiding any liability, but the jury saw it a little differently.
  • Brian WardBrian Ward Member Posts: 60 Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    I've been searching all over the internet trying to find more info about all of this and all I can find is all of the forums that Mr Ward posted similar threads on where people are also asking for more details while Mr Ward just gives small fragments of information. I would imagine that there are lots of photos in evidence that Mr Ward could share along with more detailed information about what happened. The "I don't know, I woke up bleeding and my buddy found the gun laying next to me and the case was missing" isn't quite enough to base any thoughts or opinions on except about Mr Ward. Not to sound morbid but what about a picture of the permanent disfigurment? The guy who claimed that the pickle slice fell out of his quarter pounder and burned his chin claimed permanent disfigurment and sued for a sizable amount. I would think that if this case was so cut and dried, there would be plenty of information to share.

    This is right after the accident.
  • Brian WardBrian Ward Member Posts: 60 Member
    cpj wrote: »
    He's asking....what happened. We get it was an excessive headspace (whether it was like that from the factory or caused by over charged hand loads) and we ASSume the action popped open.
    The question is, what hit you in the eye, what damage was done to the gun other than a broken stock?

    The injury was blunt force trauma…. No powder burns or brass. What actually hit me… I do not know for sure.

    In my opinion the gun still goes together well considering how it looks on the rocks in the pic. There is no mangled deformed part you can point to other than the stock. The plunger and table face is someone chipped on the edges…. but that’s about it.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,636 Senior Member
    Brian Ward wrote: »
    The injury was blunt force trauma…. No powder burns or brass. What actually hit me… I do not know for sure.

    In my opinion the gun still goes together well considering how it looks on the rocks in the pic. There is no mangled deformed part you can point to other than the stock. The plunger and table face is someone chipped on the edges…. but that’s about it.

    What is your hypothesis? Welcome BTW.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Brian Ward wrote: »
    This is right after the accident.


    Why would your face being completly covered be evidence of permanent disfigurement? You show a picture of a broken stock and no other damage as evidence of "catastrophic failure" of a firearm and a picture of someones head covered in a sleeping bag as evidence of "permanent disfigurement". This doesn't give your story much credibility.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    The OP has posted this on quite a few forums now, even a couple of archery forums and all with the same sketchy, ambiguous answers to the questions of how it happened. This is failing the smell test more and more.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,715 Senior Member
    Some people get hammered, some don't. :angel2:

    I feel very fortunate with my little mishap.

    Welcome aboard Brian.
    Shut up-----KAREN; OK Cynthia
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Brian Ward wrote: »
    I don't really know what your asking for.


    Is it me , or are we becoming a bit of a Kotel to new posters?
  • Brian WardBrian Ward Member Posts: 60 Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    What is your hypothesis? Welcome BTW.

    Combination of the scope and hammer.
  • Brian WardBrian Ward Member Posts: 60 Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    The OP has posted this on quite a few forums now, even a couple of archery forums and all with the same sketchy, ambiguous answers to the questions of how it happened. This is failing the smell test more and more.

    "ambiguous answers"

    I don’t have the case files my attorney does. I’m speaking in just general terms from memory. I’m not trying to re-litigate this case over the internet. What do you want to know specifically? I will try to post it.

    There 10 years’ worth and 1000s of pages of documents and testimony being held with the 46th Circuit Court for the County of Otsego, Michigan if you want all the facts of the case. Public Record. If I posted it all some one would complain I gave to much and no could go through it all.
  • Brian WardBrian Ward Member Posts: 60 Member
    cpj wrote: »
    So your hand loads, what was the case, bullet, primer, powder, and powder charge weight?

    The load on my hunt when the gun failed was- once fired brass Remington brass - 215 primers - 180g Nosler accubond – H-1000 85g. It is over the published data of 83 from 26 edition Hodgdon Data Manual. I worked up from 10% below max and worked up the final load in half grain increments looking for accuracy (also potency) since I was hunting for moose with Griz running around. There were no pressure signs in the cases compared to the 83 gr load (no blown primers, splits, cracks etc.). I even had two other experienced reloaders look at the cases. Also, since this was a single shot, I was not seating the bullet as deep, allowing for more case capacity...but I was not engaging the rifling. The cases were not crimped. My loads did not exceed SAAMI PSI for the 300 win mag. They were at max but not over.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    How do you know that the loads didn't exceed SAAMI PSI? Do you have a pressure measuring device.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    Quickload tells me that in .300 Win Mag, a 180gr Nosler Accubond charged with 85gr of H-1000 gives you over 75,000 psi-- SAAMI max is 64,000 psi.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    Looking at 2004, 2006, and 2009 Hodgdon loading manuals, the max load for H1000 with a 180 gr. bullet is 81 gr. Not 83 and danged sure not 85.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,862 Senior Member
    As mentioned, Mr Ward has posted the exact same thing on multiple websites. A quick check of a few of them shows the same thing. Very vague answers and no answer as to what exactly happened when the rifle failed or what exactly was damaged. Very little details shared. Just "it's public record, look it up." From the one picture we see, there is nothing shown other than a broken stock. Based on the information we have been provided, the gun failed when a handload that was loaded well over book max was fired in it. Still, there seems to be no visible damage to the action and we have not been provided information or pictures to show a "catastrophic" failure other than a broken stock. And we get a pic of Mr Ward giving a :up:. Laying there permanently disfigured and missing one of his eyes, we're doing a photo shoot....

    Kinda looks like the stock broke, scope hit his face and a lawsuit was created....
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    The picture of the rifle shows action closed right after the accident, with a broken stock. OP says case was never found. I HIGHLY DOUBT that fired case exited at the muzzle. At some point, somebody had to open the action, and at minimum, the case head would be there, at least partially, and a separated case body still in the chamber, most likely.

    Lack of pictures documenting rifle action opened after accident is suspect. Admitting to being loaded over book maximum is just crazy. Working up a load over book maximum WITHOUT a strain gauge installed, at minimum, is just asking for an accident. Using ONLY fired cases to look for signs of overpressure is beyond dangerous.

    IMHO, this story has more holes in it than 100 yards of gill net.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • WeatherbyWeatherby Senior Member Posts: 4,953 Senior Member
    Looking at 2004, 2006, and 2009 Hodgdon loading manuals, the max load for H1000 with a 180 gr. bullet is 81 gr. Not 83 and danged sure not 85.

    There is the truth Embrace it
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    This is all I could find thus far...

    Brian Ward v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, Inc., et al., in the Forty-Sixth Circuit Court for Otsego County, Michigan.

    The complaint was filed on October 16, 2006 and alleges that the plaintiff sustained eye injuries using a Thompson/Center Arms rifle. The plaintiff asserts product liability claims against both our company and the retailer based on negligence and warranty principles. The plaintiff is seeking an unspecified amount of compensatory damages.

    On November 15, 2006, we filed an answer denying all allegations of liability.

    On February 2, 2009, the plaintiff filed a second amended complaint.

    On February 17, 2009, we filed our answer to the plaintiff’s complaint.

    On October 9, 2009, we filed a motion for summary judgment.

    On October 21, 2009, the plaintiff opposed our motion. A hearing on our motion for summary judgment was held on November 3, 2009. Expert discovery is ongoing.

    A case evaluation as required by the Michigan court was held on November 13, 2009, in which the panel recommended a settlement in favor of the plaintiff in the amount of $325. We rejected this proposed settlement award.

    On December 12, 2009, the court granted our motion for summary judgment on the manufacturing defect, failure to recall, and failure to test claims, and denied our motion on the design defect claims under the theories of risk-utility and failure to warn.

    A settlement conference was scheduled for August 5, 2010, but was postponed because the plaintiff’s counsel is retiring.

    A settlement conference was held on November 2, 2010 with no agreement reached. Trial is scheduled to begin in May 2012.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Brian Ward wrote: »
    "ambiguous answers"

    I don’t have the case files my attorney does. I’m speaking in just general terms from memory. I’m not trying to re-litigate this case over the internet. What do you want to know specifically? I will try to post it.

    There 10 years’ worth and 1000s of pages of documents and testimony being held with the 46th Circuit Court for the County of Otsego, Michigan if you want all the facts of the case. Public Record. If I posted it all some one would complain I gave to much and no could go through it all.


    Several people have asked you what happened on several different websites. You don't have to recite 1000's of pages and I doubt anyone is going to go through the trouble to research too much. How about some Cliff Notes? You know, something basic like; It was September first, I woke up excited about opening day of small game season in Michigan and I was eager to try my overcharged handloads in my 300mag encore. After hiking around a rocky area where I usually spot game, I noticed a movement on the rocks. I watched the spot like a hawk for what seemed like minutes, and when I determined that it was game, I slowly raised my rifle eager to see the results of my overcharged handloads. I placed the crosshairs of my scope on the animal and slowly applied pressure to the trigger untill the weapon discharged. There was a loud----, and then I ----, and then the gun----,and then my buddy
    , and it appeared that
    and the gun
    and my head was
    , and my eye was
    from the
    . I decided to sue because a tragedy such as this should never befall another human being.


    A brief synopsis like that would be pretty simple and help clarify things for all of the folks that have read your posts. I'm also quite confident that representatives of S&W, TC, and their legal teams are following every post that you make to build evidence for their appeal and the fact that you admit to substantially overcharging the round on the internet will likely be used in their appeal.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • NJSOGNJSOG Member Posts: 101 Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Quickload tells me that in .300 Win Mag, a 180gr Nosler Accubond charged with 85gr of H-1000 gives you over 75,000 psi-- SAAMI max is 64,000 psi.

    I sitting here scratching my head. Why would anyone that can read a reloading guide (Book) charge a round passed the recommended weight ? That is why there are maximum limits to reloading.
    Me Thinks someone was trying to be rocket scientist 🚀



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 6,462 Senior Member
    Seems to me somebody just doesn't want to own up to the fact that stuff happens. The shooting sports are a risk, a calculated risk, nevertheless a risk. We shoot missiles at very high velocity out of steel, plastics, wood or aluminum. If we get our rocket science wrong things go.....um.......wrong. Going outside the bounds of what guys that are actual rocket scientists, of sorts, is just plain silly. Ballistitions figure out what pressures these round of ours can take and repeatedly take safely. So why let logic get on the way of a good load, even one 4 grains over max. And for what? Maybe 150 Fps gain, not worth it to me or my gear. It's sad when anyone gets hurt from any accident that is preventable, but there it its preventable.

    In short, things break. All mechanical things will fail. We do our best to not help the process along faster.

    Now where did I leave that alcohol racing fuel, I need to go mow the yard.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
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