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How things can change for the worst in a split second. WARNING, Graphic footage...

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  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    The thing that went wrong was that the moron pulled a fake gun on two cops. If he wanted to live all he had to do was raise his hands and let them take the fake. I'm with Wambli, suicide by cop.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,632 Senior Member
    The thing that went wrong was that the moron pulled a fake gun on two cops. If he wanted to live all he had to do was raise his hands and let them take the fake. I'm with Wambli, suicide by cop.


    :that: This guy either wanted this to happen...or was stupid enough to think it wouldn't happen. Either way, we win. Less schmutz in the gene pool.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,577 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    You don't read so well do you ?

    I read fine. I think you don't remember what you type after your type it.

    There is nothing done Willy nilly, if you are going to handcuff someone, you are Arresting / detaining anyone, which is what is happening when a person is handcuffed, the routine is to frisk a person for weapons prior to handcuffing them.

    The "routine" you speak of sounds like a workplace norm, not a legal frisk. Plus I doubt you are brushed up on the latest case law.

    Everything respecting a detainees civil rights must be observed, otherwise you should not be friskying or handcuffing them at all !

    Uh...that's what I've been saying.

    Something, a lot of somethings has gone wrong, as was the case here.

    Above.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,577 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    :that: This guy either wanted this to happen...or was stupid enough to think it wouldn't happen. Either way, we win. Less schmutz in the gene pool.

    Yup.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,632 Senior Member
    What I don't understand, why did the female officer pull her TASER first? I'm assuming she didn't already have it out and in hand BEFORE the idiot pulled his toy. Would she have had it out already? If not, please tell me that her first instinct wasn't to grab the TASER...she had a good reason to do this, right? :silly:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,577 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    What I don't understand, why did the female officer pull her TASER first? I'm assuming she didn't already have it out and in hand BEFORE the idiot pulled his toy. Would she have had it out already? If not, please tell me that her first instinct wasn't to grab the TASER...she had a good reason to do this, right? :silly:

    Poor training and PISS poor mindset.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »



    You want handcuffing done "by the book", as you put it, but want to search people all willy-nilly and not by the book? The minimum legal standard to detain someone in handcuffs is reasonable suspicion. The legal standard to search someone is probable cause OR permission. A "pat down", or frisk, is NOTa search.

    Please clarify for me: "reasonable suspicion" of what, to handcuff someone? In your opinion.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    That is a valid question that he been beaten to death in many venues from law school, squad rooms and SCOTUS !
    AND has yet to be resolved, you frisk a bloke and turn up a knife, gun, ammo, loaded magazines, GTG ? NO !

    You now have to splain how and why you frisked the suspect !!!

    It must be obvious, like seeing the butt of a gun exposed, not just reputation of the suspect possessing firearms and other weapons, a witness or CI is a valid reason to search, or on consent or warrant.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,577 Senior Member
    N320AW wrote: »
    Please clarify for me: "reasonable suspicion" of what, to handcuff someone? In your opinion.

    It's not my opinion. It's precedented case law.

    Essentially the "reasonable suspicion" burden is met when observations and/or information is obtained which would lead a reasonable person to believe you had committed, are committing, or ar about to commit a crime. Like an inn-keeper saying "Hey the guy that stole my money is in the bathroom and he is wearing (this clothing)."

    You find that guy by that description then you could reasonably understand him to be the alleged perpetrator.

    Police can physically detain someone pursuant to a criminal investigation if they reasonably believe they are the perpetrator.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,577 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    That is a valid question that he been beaten to death in many venues from law school, squad rooms and SCOTUS !
    AND has yet to be resolved, you frisk a bloke and turn up a knife, gun, ammo, loaded magazines, GTG ? NO !

    You now have to splain how and why you frisked the suspect !!!

    It must be obvious, like seeing the butt of a gun exposed, not just reputation of the suspect possessing firearms and other weapons, a witness or CI is a valid reason to search, or on consent or warrant.

    Got it...

    Do whatever I want then make the evidence fit the crime.

    And you realize the SCOTUS is the only legitimate thing you mentioned there. Opinions in law school and especially squad rooms don't make law...
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Poor training and PISS poor mindset.

    Palestine is a small city, ~50 miles south of me. I haven't been there much in the past 30 plus years, but previous to that I worked around there a lot. Knowing what they had then, I'm impressed as hell that they got this done as well as they did. This was a drunk with a toy gun, and the video of the initial contact has been omitted for some reason, so there's really no way to know how it might have turned out with a real shooter, but the two police officers performed well enough to survive a Texas grand jury. Nationwide, in today's LE climate, I'm betting that most would call that a very satisfactory outcome. They got through a difficult confrontation without getting fired or prosecuted, and that's about all I can take from this. Too bad the guy was an idiot, but it was his call.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,577 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Palestine is a small city, ~50 miles south of me. I haven't been there much in the past 30 plus years, but previous to that I worked around there a lot. Knowing what they had then, I'm impressed as hell that they got this done as well as they did. This was a drunk with a toy gun, and the video of the initial contact has been omitted for some reason, so there's really no way to know how it might have turned out with a real shooter, but the two police officers performed well enough to survive a Texas grand jury. Nationwide, in today's LE climate, I'm betting that most would call that a very satisfactory outcome. They got through a difficult confrontation without getting fired or prosecuted, and that's about all I can take from this. Too bad the guy was an idiot, but it was his call.

    The entire video is available, I've seen in you YouTube. It's them confronting the suspect in the restaurant bathroom all the way to the shoot outside. Clean all the way through.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,632 Senior Member
    Having watched the vid in it's entirety, the only questions I could come up with was my previous post about the female officer's actions, and this one: Why would the Sergeant turn his back on the dude in the first place? He may have felt no danger from the guy, but turning your back on him seems like a bad idea regardless the circumstances.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
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