Home Main Category Personal Defense

And this is why...

EliEli Senior MemberPosts: 3,074 Senior Member
http://www.inquisitr.com/1293042/st-louis-dad-saves-his-daughter-shoots-attackers-who-held-a-gun-to-her-head/


Admittedly a rare occurrence, but when we get into specifics, what isn't?

The mouse gun that's in your pocket (or center console) might be very comfortable to carry, but do you trust yourself to make this shot with it?

To reiterate my sig-line....We do not get to decide the level of precision required to end our shooting problem. We only get to decide the level of precision we are capable of.
«134

Replies

  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,186 Senior Member
    Dad should receive an award, Mom needs some traing, but she sure tried.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Amen to that !
    I agree, I would rather be "uncomfortable" all day long with a larger gun, than be comfortable with a possibly inadequate gun, when wearing a gun the correct way, even a full size gun is comfortable, yes even with shorts and a t-shirt and flipped flops lol...
    I want the more accurate gun, since my accuracy will likely drop somewhat, I want high capacity as well.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,988 Senior Member
    What was the range and what was the target size.

    The article says he hit both men inside a home, OK, great job, where is the awesome marksmanship?

    He did great, and he landed three rounds in a 30"x20", (chest, thigh, thigh) area at a likely distance of under 15 feet on the guy who lived, and it doesnt say where the room temp guy was hit.

    As a function of protecting the home? Fantastic. As a marksmanship guide, not so much. Yes, I can do that with the rat gun.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,186 Senior Member
    To be honest I dont know if I could hit anything but the floor or ceiling if someone had a gun to my daughter
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I remember those hostage targets, very good practice for such a scenario, even if a head shot is not lethal, it is ussually painful enough for the hostage taker to drop everything and open up for a second application, however, it is somewhat of a gamble, the stakes sometimes the hostages safety.

    I am not thrilled with the idea of using a .380 acp in that scenario.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,554 Senior Member
    ...........I am not a fan of the shotgun/buckshot combination for HD.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Very good point..
    Not enough precision for so called "home defense" encounters/ hostage, other friendly people nearby.
    Shotgun / buckshot..
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    If I lived in a Country limiting people to .380 acp and other minor calibres, a prospect that thrills me not, I would make sure I was proficient with .380 acp, now the choice of what .380 acp handgun?

    The whole .380 acp prospect / problem leaves me somewhat apathetic.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    I cannot imagine taking a shot with any handgungun where the only thing to shoot at was a head next to my daughters head. A lot of variables involved, distance, angle, light and so on. I see GOOD shooters try and do that on cardboard in competition and miss. The added stress of life or death of a loved one would be, I dont know, almost insurmountable to me. I hope I never have to make that choice.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    If I lived in a Country limiting people to .380 acp and other minor calibres, a prospect that thrills me not, I would make sure I was proficient with .380 acp, now the choice of what .380 acp handgun?

    The whole .380 acp prospect / problem leaves me somewhat apathetic.
    You'd have a Bersa Thunder, you know you would
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,988 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    “He was holding her hostage. She was a human shield. So I did what I had to do…. It just happened. I didn’t have no choice. He had my daughter so I did what I had to do.”

    From this personal account,
    since the story also mentions the BG was holding a gun to her head, I would assume the only visible target was the BGs head, which by the way it's just about the only target I would have considered if I was faced with the same. And here is where chambering selection/platform comes into play. I would never risk shooting a BG with a .22 or a .25 to the head, enough to stop them from pulling the trigger at point blank on a loved one. Too many folks continue to function after being shot in the head with small calibers. Also the platforms from which these are typically launched in CCW configurations are usually very challenging to shoot accurately in anything but get-off-me distances.

    Same scenario with a carry sized 9mm, .40S&W, .45acp or perhaps even a good .380? all systems go for headshot.
    You dont know where he hit the BG#1 or how many times he connected or the distance. #2 was BEHIND #1 and he connected 3 times in a 20x30 area. A 22 through the eye socket will skim around inside the braincase, a Raven 25 acp through the soft tissue under the mouth will end it DRT, a 45acp can and has ricocheted off the point of a human skull, there are a lot of stories of people walking away from a 9mm to the head, Giffords for one. There are no guarantees, and you admit you are making a assumption.
    Its a handgun, a compromise. Yep the guy did good, and IMHO it is WHY you practice at longer distances. If you can hit it far, the short ones aren't so bad.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • NJSOGNJSOG Member Posts: 101 Member
    .45ACP Turning Useless Human Garbage into Useful Human Manure for Over 100 Years. No rat gun for me.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Yes, I can do that with the rat gun.


    Then you've nothing to worry about.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I suppose it's time to trot out My favorite golf parable, you don't use a putter as a substitute for every shot, you use the correct club, I feel the same applies loosely to handguns carried for personal defense encounters.

    A full size handgun is what I prefer to cover most of my sidearm needs.

    This is only my opinion based on my personal experiences.
    Your mileage may vary.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Well Wambli, if all you had was a .22, would you take the shot (and the chance of it's affect) or try and talk him down?
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Let's say a Ruger MK lll, bull barrel, super accurate, why not ?
    If it is the only firearm available, however, if it is a Beretta Bobcat .22 LR, the tiny tip up barrel model, hopefully the shooter has enough practice.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Well, Let's say you were quite Po, (poor house poor) and your beast friend gifts you a Ruger MK lll bull barrel, it is your only gun........
    Just saying, and the wife is anti gun.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,554 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Well, Let's say you were quite Po, (poor house poor) and your beast friend gifts you a Ruger MK lll bull barrel, it is your only gun........
    Just saying, and the wife is anti gun.

    Find a new wife?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,632 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Oh and one more point. Yes, folks have survived being shot with .45s and 9mm to the head. I can't remember one occurrence though, where a BG continued being a threat after being shot with a 9mm or better in the head. If anyone got one I'd love to read about it. On the other hand I've read and heard from medical personel directly how they've had patients shot with .25 and .22s and had walked into the ER on their own two feet. My own dad told me about one he had in NYC that did not know he was shot or why he was bleeding out of the back of his head. He thought someone had hit him with a rock or a sling shot.


    No citation (and no badguy continuing to do what badguys do) but there was a news story posted here before one of our many crashes about a soldier over in the sandbox who took a shot to face with a 9mm (upper lip area, bullet lodged under his nose, IIRC) who ended up making the other guy die for his country...admittedly not a braincase shot, and almost certainly a complete fluke, but still impressive.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    Personally, I don't have the confidance in my abilities to attempt a head shot on a BG standing behind my loved one. Maybe, I don't have the huevos either. I mean I'm a pretty gutsy dude, but this is serious spit.

    Then, in my opinion, this is exactly the scenario you should prepare for. I also feel inadequate to the task, but the alternative is trusting the bad guy.

    This is the reason I do most of my practice on small targets with a subcompact .45 or 9mm. As much as I would be afraid of having to make such a shot, I have convinced myself it is the right thing to do, so I work to improve my chances of success by working for tight groups at 10 yards. On my good days, when I can shoot 2" groups at ten yards, I can shoot cloverleafs at five or less, which is a more likely scenario in a real life event. It's just a matter of challenging yourself with your practice - not just wasting ammo with shots that you already do well.

    Besides, when I am shooting a subcompact well, it then seems very easy to hit well with a full sized handgun, which is what I will have if I'm expecting trouble.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    The mouse gun that's in your pocket (or center console) might be very comfortable to carry, but do you trust yourself to make this shot with it?

    Er, this occurred in the person's home, not in the car. So the father had access to whatever firearm he kept there. For me, it's a Springfield XD Tactical w. 13+1 of .45s.

    So the question is moot.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    http://www.inquisitr.com/1293042/st-louis-dad-saves-his-daughter-shoots-attackers-who-held-a-gun-to-her-head/


    Admittedly a rare occurrence, but when we get into specifics, what isn't?

    The mouse gun that's in your pocket (or center console) might be very comfortable to carry, but do you trust yourself to make this shot with it?

    To reiterate my sig-line....We do not get to decide the level of precision required to end our shooting problem. We only get to decide the level of precision we are capable of.

    The truth is still true, no matter how uncomfortable the truth may be.

    The ostrich hides its head in the sand, yet the lion can see and eat it, tender parts and all.

    That gun left behind in the center console may as well be on the moon, for all the good it will do you, even left in a nightstand table, I don't trust myself to move fast enough to retrieve it, should the need arise.

    Just reinforces what we already know to be true.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    :up:
    Actually, get rid of her so you can afford a better gun

    Makes great sense to me. Getting hooked up with an anti-gun woman is wrong in the first place. I fondly remember by former girlfriend (with whom I'm still friends) and I was working at the time and had bucks in the bank, and asked her what she wanted for her birthday, and she said "A gun for self protection" which made my heart sing.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,137 Senior Member
    Back when I was competing, we shot a LOT of hostage/multiple threat scenarios, with both carbine and handgun, from reach out and touch them distances to 50 yards or so. Even exercising care, I pinked a lot of hostage targets...and this was under artificially stressful conditions with static targets. I shudder to think of a scenario involving a loved one with all the weaving and bobbing that goes on in real life...

    Note: set this up on a range and try it for yourself....use a balloon for the bad guys head and tape it to the back of the hostage's head....then get back with me....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    The truth is still true, no matter how uncomfortable the truth may be.

    The ostrich hides its head in the sand, yet the lion can see and eat it, tender parts and all.

    That gun left behind in the center console may as well be on the moon, for all the good it will do you, even left in a nightstand table, I don't trust myself to move fast enough to retrieve it, should the need arise.

    Just reinforces what we already know to be true.

    What I know to be true is this: The thread question was NOT about home defensive weapons. It took a home defense situation and asked about vehicle / on person carry weapon, not home defense.

    Head in the sand is not the issue. The issue is answering the thread question, and it dealt with vehicle or personal carry weapon, not home defense weapon, regardless of the fact that the story was a "home invasion" type of scenario. So the question posed is moot. Moot means not that the question is wrong, but that it's irrelevant.

    If the question is the type of weapon carried on person or in vehicle, then we can debate this. And if the question is about the type of weapon for home defense and how it's accessible or not, we can debate that, too. What we can't do realistically is debate a moot point.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    That gun left behind in the center console may as well be on the moon, for all the good it will do you, even left in a nightstand table, I don't trust myself to move fast enough to retrieve it, should the need arise.

    Now as to that point, it's implying that the gun left in the center console is the only gun owned. And it cannot be BOTH left in the console and sitting on the night table.

    For accessible guns for home self defense, I am within quick reach of a .45 where I sit to write and watch Tv, and at the bedside. And no, I don't have a shoulder holster to carry while in the shower or the john.

    Some folks live in a seriously dangerous area or neighborhood where they need to carry a weapon on their person while at home at all times. I myself do not live in such circumstances, so for me, having a .45 at hand for about 95% of my home stay is okay with me. Others need lots more home protection and need a sidearm on their person at all times. Which is their choice depending on their home neighborhood or area circumstances and I've got no gripe about that. They apparently have decided they need immediate and constant protection at all times. I don't live in such a dangerous environment and so I do not think this necessary. Each person has that choice to make.
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    Sam, would mind answering a question for me?

    How is having a pistol strapped to your recliner and having a pistol on the night stand any different from wearing your CCW pistol in the house?

    In post #41 you say "...having a .45 at hand for about 95% of my home stay is ok with me."

    I don't see a difference from your situation and the people who carry at home.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    You need moar practice !. Lol,
    You only practiced 3 times !!! Joke !!
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Since you're going to whine about it later on...

    Yes, you're being a blatantly obtuse little girl.
    Yes, I'm calling you names.
    Yes, you're being unfairly persecuted.
    Yes, anything you say regarding self defense is automatically wrong.

    ...there, I think that about covers them.

    samzhere wrote: »
    Er, this occurred in the person's home, not in the car. So the father had access to whatever firearm he kept there. For me, it's a Springfield XD Tactical w. 13+1 of .45s.

    So the question is moot.



    From the article...
    "KTVI reports that the dad was visiting his daughter and her mother that night, and he saw what was happening. He and the teen’s mother both sprang into action. He pulled his own gun, and she got a gun as well."

    I suppose it's theoretically possible to write without being able to read, but that is, as far as I know, a unique condition. Congratulations Sam, you're a special snowflake.

    What is actually a moot point in this situation, is the setting entirely. The question I put forth is in the situation at hand, traditionally known as a "hostage shot", can you make the shot with your CURRENT CARRY GUN, especially if it is some sort of sub-compact or pocket pistol, or would you be better off with a more shootable gun, that's still appropriate to carry?

    Since the article is over a year old, and I'm sure that somehow negates it's relevancy entirely, so let's go with something much more recent. The theater shooting in Louisiana a few days ago...you're in a dark theater, someone comes in and starts murdering people, are you confident in your ability to get yourself, and possibly your loved ones out of that situation with what you currently carry?

    The point of this thread was simply to ask that question.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Those are always relevant questions, Eli has distilled what it took me over 20 years to learn imperfectly, down to a science.
    His modified Glock 17 is proof enough.

    Threat level and anticipating threats is really "MOOT" if anything is indeed moot, since you can never really know when a threat is imminent, because I sure can't predict anything now that I no longer have a working Crystal ball, ever since both my balls were broken in the same accident, leaving me without balls......lol....

    So carrying 1 bit of minimal hardware is not my choice to cover all my bases or what may happen, unknown to me, I prefer to be prepared, as much as possible, within reason.

    I don't want a major oh crap ! moment, as a bad guy has somehow gotten in, and is standing between me and my sidearm tucked away in my __________ safely, even from me !!!

    I prefer to have at least one full size easy to shoot gun on me at all times.
    Yes, even showering / or in the crapper, another great reason to have a Glock............
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
Sign In or Register to comment.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Temporary Price Reduction

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

PREVIEW THIS MONTH'S ISSUE

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Guns & Ammo stories delivered right to your inbox every week.

Advertisement