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And this is why...

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  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Since you're going to whine about it later on...

    Yes, you're being a blatantly obtuse little girl.
    Yes, I'm calling you names.
    Yes, you're being unfairly persecuted.
    Yes, anything you say regarding self defense is automatically wrong.

    ...there, I think that about covers them.

    samzhere wrote: »
    Er, this occurred in the person's home, not in the car. So the father had access to whatever firearm he kept there. For me, it's a Springfield XD Tactical w. 13+1 of .45s.

    So the question is moot.



    From the article...
    "KTVI reports that the dad was visiting his daughter and her mother that night, and he saw what was happening. He and the teen’s mother both sprang into action. He pulled his own gun, and she got a gun as well."

    I suppose it's theoretically possible to write without being able to read, but that is, as far as I know, a unique condition. Congratulations Sam, you're a special snowflake.

    What is actually a moot point in this situation, is the setting entirely. The question I put forth is in the situation at hand, traditionally known as a "hostage shot", can you make the shot with your CURRENT CARRY GUN, especially if it is some sort of sub-compact or pocket pistol, or would you be better off with a more shootable gun, that's still appropriate to carry?

    Since the article is over a year old, and I'm sure that somehow negates it's relevancy entirely, so let's go with something much more recent. The theater shooting in Louisiana a few days ago...you're in a dark theater, someone comes in and starts murdering people, are you confident in your ability to get yourself, and possibly your loved ones out of that situation with what you currently carry?

    The point of this thread was simply to ask that question.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Those are always relevant questions, Eli has distilled what it took me over 20 years to learn imperfectly, down to a science.
    His modified Glock 17 is proof enough.

    Threat level and anticipating threats is really "MOOT" if anything is indeed moot, since you can never really know when a threat is imminent, because I sure can't predict anything now that I no longer have a working Crystal ball, ever since both my balls were broken in the same accident, leaving me without balls......lol....

    So carrying 1 bit of minimal hardware is not my choice to cover all my bases or what may happen, unknown to me, I prefer to be prepared, as much as possible, within reason.

    I don't want a major oh crap ! moment, as a bad guy has somehow gotten in, and is standing between me and my sidearm tucked away in my __________ safely, even from me !!!

    I prefer to have at least one full size easy to shoot gun on me at all times.
    Yes, even showering / or in the crapper, another great reason to have a Glock............
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    In a dark theater, mass confusion 25-30 yds away, moving target. I think I'd get small and wait til I was sure. I think getting in a gunfight in a crowd may get even more folks hurt. 5 yds yes. 10 yds probably. Further, I guess it depends.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,812 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Back when I was competing, we shot a LOT of hostage/multiple threat scenarios, with both carbine and handgun, from reach out and touch them distances to 50 yards or so. Even exercising care, I pinked a lot of hostage targets...and this was under artificially stressful conditions with static targets. I shudder to think of a scenario involving a loved one with all the weaving and bobbing that goes on in real life...

    Note: set this up on a range and try it for yourself....use a balloon for the bad guys head and tape it to the back of the hostage's head....then get back with me....

    This begs the question: So what is your conclusion, meaning what do you think your decision would be, if faced with laying down your gun and submitting to the BG, or attempting the shot?

    I ask because I have practiced this a few times at the range, and either winged or killed the 'hostage' a few times, too. Still, my gut tells me that submitting to a desperate BG is not going to end well, under any of the circumstances that I can imagine.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    That might even change me mind about laser devices, in a dark theater might be a necessity.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,572 Senior Member
    I feel confident that I could make that shot, within inside-my-house distances, with any of my current carry guns. In public (such as a theater), there's too many variables for me to say for sure what action I would take, but given the opportunity, I would act. I hope to God I never see that situation.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,635 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    This begs the question: So what is your conclusion, meaning what do you think your decision would be, if faced with laying down your gun and submitting to the BG, or attempting the shot?

    I ask because I have practiced this a few times at the range, and either winged or killed the 'hostage' a few times, too. Still, my gut tells me that submitting to a desperate BG is not going to end well, under any of the circumstances that I can imagine.

    In all truth, I can't say...while I'm confident in my skills,and fully understand the potential consequences, this is one of those questions I just can't answer in the abstract....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I suppose wise people would play it by ear, each situation is vastly different, as is each individual, each according to their ability and intestinal fortitude.

    A man or woman, has got to know his or her limitations as well as the limitations of the gun they carry.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Sam, would mind answering a question for me?

    How is having a pistol strapped to your recliner and having a pistol on the night stand any different from wearing your CCW pistol in the house?

    In post #41 you say "...having a .45 at hand for about 95% of my home stay is ok with me."

    I don't see a difference from your situation and the people who carry at home.

    Okay, good question. I'm sitting in my recliner, reading or watching TV or using my laptop. I'm partially disabled, use a walker, and so I sit a lot. How do you suggest I wear a sidearm? If it's in a belt holster that implies that I've got on long pants or sturdy clothes w. a sturdy belt. But I normally wear baggy gym shorts and and an old t-shirt and deck shoes. I'm sitting in my deep dish recliner. So a belt holster, the gun is kilted sideways and the butt is up against the cushions. I'd likely have to stand up or lean up awkwardly to reach the pistol. Or I'm in bed with just the baggy shorts on. Should I wear a sidearm holster in bed while I sleep?

    However, I can sit in my recliner and there's a nice sturdy metal open-work steel shelf next to me on which top shelf are some books and a notepad. 2nd shelf and parallel to my arm is the unzipped padded case containing my XD .45 and all I need do is just reach over and grab the butt of the gun as easily as i might reach for a Coke. Very close at hand and I don't have to stretch or maneuver at all, just reach out.

    Similarly, in bed, the night table is right there. There's a clamp-on bedlamp and under this on the shelf is an unzipped case containing one of my 1911s. I just reach out and it's there, within reach of where I lie.

    In both cases, the pistols are loaded and ready to fire. All I need do with the 1911 is sweep off the safety since it's cocked & locked, of course.

    I haven't had a home invasion for almost a week now (ha ha) but for about 90-95% of my time indoors, there's a loaded and ready .45 within reach. It's not there when I go potty or go to the kitchen but otherwise yes.

    The difference is not readiness. As Hamlet says, "The readiness is all" but it's simply a case of reachable access. A sidearm is simply not reachable while sitting down if it's at the waist. Same problem that people have with waist guns while driving.

    It would take me about the same time to lay hands on my XD .45 that's in the gun case (typical padded single gun bag, unzipped, flat on the table and unrestricted by any other objects -- I keep it that way) than it would be for me to get to a belt worn gun that would likely be a lot harder to get hands on if sitting in a deepdish recliner.

    Also I'm no quick draw artist. But I am a pretty quick and accurate close shot after that gun's in hand, because this is what I practice, close range fast shooting.

    So the choice from having a gun at reach where I sit or lie is equivalent to wearing it on person, and probably easier to access. It's simply a case of physical access while sitting or lying down, rather than standing in the middle of the room, because I'm usually sitting due to my infirmity. Nothing more complex than that.

    But back to the thread question even if it's slightly muddled. We're talking about home defense from a break-in, not defense while out and around or in the vehicle, right?

    I'm a very accurate close shot, because that's what I practice. My .45s are both very accurate pistols, too, far more accurate than I would ever be. So in a "hostage" held at gunpoint situation? I'd likely hit the guy in the head square on, considering the distance would likely be about 10-15 feet max. I can put all my shots into the black on a target at 25ft with great reliability. Of course in a real situation, moving around and excited and a life or death scenario, accuracy would go down a lot. So it would be a choice but I would surely have that .45 in hand and ready within only a few seconds. Any change or chance and the guy is dead.

    But the scenario describe, pretty rare. It could happen and of course does, per the news story. But unlike Law&Order where whatshername in every episode climax is held by a bad guy at gunpoint and Eliot has his gun pointed straight at the left eye of the bad guy and he doesn't fire, hey, I would.

    I simply don't think such an event is much worth worrying about other than being generally ready with easy access to a gun in the home. And that I have.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    This begs the question: So what is your conclusion, meaning what do you think your decision would be, if faced with laying down your gun and submitting to the BG, or attempting the shot?

    I ask because I have practiced this a few times at the range, and either winged or killed the 'hostage' a few times, too. Still, my gut tells me that submitting to a desperate BG is not going to end well, under any of the circumstances that I can imagine.

    I would never submit, ever. Period. If I had my gun in hand, I'd keep it aimed and the slghtest chance, I'd shoot. If I didn't have the gun in the first place, the question is again moot. But if armed, never relent. You're dead for sure if you do, and so is the hostage.

    What these thugs don't expect is resistance. And they likely don't practice like we do. I'm surprised that they ever practice and we see how many times they miss and their guns misfire or jam, too. Most of them have junk or old or dirty guns and certainly aren't that reliable. We guys keep our stuff ready and our power dry, so to speak.

    No. Once that gun is in hand, it is never put down until it's over.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,660 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    What is actually a moot point in this situation, is the setting entirely. The question I put forth is in the situation at hand, traditionally known as a "hostage shot", can you make the shot with your CURRENT CARRY GUN, especially if it is some sort of sub-compact or pocket pistol, or would you be better off with a more shootable gun, that's still appropriate to carry?

    Since the article is over a year old, and I'm sure that somehow negates it's relevancy entirely, so let's go with something much more recent. The theater shooting in Louisiana a few days ago...you're in a dark theater, someone comes in and starts murdering people, are you confident in your ability to get yourself, and possibly your loved ones out of that situation with what you currently carry?

    The point of this thread was simply to ask that question.

    Well, then everyone should carry a carbine at minimum using that logic.

    ANY handgun is a compromise. A 380 is better than the one you dont have and a 30-30 will beat a 1911 every day in both described situations, so saddle up and put a scabbarad on the kids, we're going to the movies.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    No offence, but that is ineffable twaddle, by that yardstick, why carry at all? Simple derision answers not the question, it simply dismisses it out of hand.

    I am prepared, with the best handgun as my sidearm, the best long gun is often out of reach.

    There are exceptions, I had acquired a Mossberg 500, and had been cleaning and fiddling with it, finally, I had finished the gas receipts and bagged up the money and was going to lock up, grabbed my Mossberg and started locking up the office, looked up and saw a car parked by the price sign, odd since I had not parked anything there, I brought my shotgun up, suddenly the car and an unseen motorcycle started up and shrieked out burning rubber against traffic until they reached the end of the concrete road divider.

    Normally I did not have a shotgun closing the gas station, after that I tried to make it a habit to close the gas station with my Mossberg 500 handy.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    Sam I am not sure if you didn't understand my question or are just avoiding actually answering it.

    The question is, what is the difference in having a pistol at hand where you spend 95% of the versus wearing it?

    I understand that with your lifestyle and disabilities that wearing a pistol all the time is not the best way for you.

    I spend 95% of my time wearing jeans. Jean's are part of my uniform for work. If I carry a pistol at work and leave it on my belt until I get ready for bed that is that same thing as you sitting right next to yours.

    I have never had my home broken into or a home invasion or had to draw down on somedude whilst giving them the steely eye. I still choose to be ready. In my mind it is the same as keeping jumper cables and a tow strap in my pickup.

    So again, how are you morally superior to me because you only keep a pistol close to hand instead of wearing the pistol on a belt?
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Normally I did not have a shotgun closing the gas station, after that I often made it a habit to often close the station with my Mossberg handy.....

    Excellent! I kinda think you mentioned this event previously. And it's exactly right. Were I to be in a commercial situation, especially one where firepower is often needed, due to the relative chance of a robbery, a shotgun is the right thing to have. I've got a nice ol' 590 in the closet, too, loaded.

    Makes perfect sense given the scenario. Having the right tool for the event is the correct idea.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Sam I am not sure if you didn't understand my question or are just avoiding actually answering it.

    The question is, what is the difference in having a pistol at hand where you spend 95% of the versus wearing it?

    I understand that with your lifestyle and disabilities that wearing a pistol all the time is not the best way for you.

    I spend 95% of my time wearing jeans. Jean's are part of my uniform for work. If I carry a pistol at work and leave it on my belt until I get ready for bed that is that same thing as you sitting right next to yours.

    I have never had my home broken into or a home invasion or had to draw down on somedude whilst giving them the steely eye. I still choose to be ready. In my mind it is the same as keeping jumper cables and a tow strap in my pickup.

    So again, how are you morally superior to me because you only keep a pistol close to hand instead of wearing the pistol on a belt?

    Er, FB, I never mentioned superiority or claimed otherwise. Nor did I say anything about the steely eye thing. Remember that I never said that myself -- it was tagged onto me by someone else.

    I never even implied that carrying on the waist was wrong or silly. I clearly stated that the person who chooses to do this does so with a view of responding to the individual circumstances. Some folks here wear a sidearm routinely while at home, just walking around in the house and going to the kitchen for a snack and whatever. I NEVER said this was wrong. I just stated that their own environment is so violent and chancy that they have decided it's relevant to do this sort of on-person carry. And I never said it was wrong. I clearly said it was their decision based upon the danger and level of risk where they live. And it's fine with me and I think it's fine that they've decided that their home environment is that dangerous such as they need to be armed all the time.

    I only said that for me, my own environment isn't that dangerous and so I'm perfectly content to have a loaded .45 within easy reach for about 95% of the time I'm home. And I clearly explained the physical circumstances which would make a sidearm inaccessible to me most of the time. Does anyone here wear a gun on their waist while sleeping? I think not. Maybe their neighborhood is that risky, I dunno.

    It's about that first shot. I don't claim nor have I ever claimed to be an overall great shooter. I can no longer shoot long guns nor have I ever been that interested in long range shooting. I don't diss anyone who does, it's just not for me. I am mostly a self defense person, and I've clearly stated this on several occasions but you've apparently missed this so...

    I practice close range self defense with a handgun, period. And because of continual practice and being a pretty good natural pistol shot anyway, I've developed a very good close range accuracy, and I'm fast. By close range I mean 25ft or less. This encompasses the vast majority of self defense situations. Where I live, I am likely to be confronted by a thug who wants to mug me or stick a knife in my head and he'll need to be pretty close up for that. Or maybe a couple of guys who want to carjack me. Either way, they will not do this via a rifle w. scope at 400 yards. It's an up close and personal thing, and that circle of defense is generally 10 feet or so, and so my practice at 25 ft, sometimes less, is applicable to the sort of situations where I live.

    I don't live on a farm or estate nor do I have any long distances to patrol or keep safe. My girlfriend & I live in a nice, comfy but modest size 1br apt -- if I lived on a ranch or farm, then circumstances would show that I needed longer distance protection. But I don't. I go 50 ft to my car. I walk 10-15 ft to the kitchen. That's it. So my personal and specific self defense needs are dictated by my environment. I don't know why this is so difficult for some to grasp.

    If I lived in such a violent and dangerous place that this dictated the need to wear a sidearm while just being at home, then yeah, I'd do that. But my living circumstances are not that dangerous, here in central but "quasi-suburban" Houston. My neighborhood is sedate and very well controlled. No slums or ghetto here. Huge expensive homes and townhomes and many single family dwellings, small apartment buildings, most 1 or 2 floors, a dozen units, and so on. There are burglaries of course. But very little on-person crimes. Nevertheless, I am always near a gun and have, as you know, a nice reliable .357 snubbie in the car as well. I have decided that these are fine.

    Why? Because I simply cannot envision a sustained, long distance attack from several heavily armed thugs. Were I the owner of a pawn shop or jewelry store? Damn right I'd have a sidearm and a shotgun nearby. But I don't. I deliberately maintain a non-flashy outward existence. I don't have a fancy car nor live in a snooty big townhome -- can't afford it anyway. I'm nondescript and I live a very nondescript life, just hanging out at the local Brit pub, trips to Kroger, and so on.

    I am not "steely eyed" but I am also not reticent about self defense. This is a mindset that anyone who wants to have a gun for self defense needs to have. Otherwise the gun is useless and would probably be used against them if they're too reluctant to fire. I've been in a couple of near-shoot incidents, which I've explained here before. In each case I thankfully did not need to pull that trigger but I was damn ready to do so, if the punk or twerp or thug or whomever took that next step. I am not afraid. Not because I'm "steely eyed" (I'm not) but because I have a gun. That doesn't make me brave but it does mean that I'm a lot safer. I keep my guns loaded and lubed and I shoot them regularly. That's about all I can do or anyone can do.

    We choose the firearms that we need for the circumstances of our lives and we practice with those guns for the situations we think might occur. Some here are prepping for a ninja jihad attack. I am not. I am prepping for the one or two thugs who want to carjack me or jam a knife into my side. Those I can handle just fine. And same, if some idiot kicks in my door one night, well, like anyone, I can be asleep or in the shower or otherwise indefensible. But otherwise, I'm good to go. I'm very adept for a non-LEO, non-expert with close range handgun shooting. That's my "thing" and not long range rifles and so on. So I practice this and I've developed a good, accurate, and pretty fast response. I load my .45 with Corbon PowrBall +P which is a very good defensive load, my guns are clean and lubed and loaded and I trust them. And yeah, I'm partial to .45s and soon as I get my advance check from the publisher, or my first royalty payment, I'm gonna buy a nice compact .45 to replace the snubbie in the car.

    At no time in my posts did I imply that I was morally superior. If you can find this I'll apologize. I just said that for ME, I don't need much in the way of reloads or lots of ammo -- one cylinder or one magazine will do the job. Others here who live in a far more dangerous environment than I? Well they may need those 2 knives and extra mags on their person at all times. I don't say they're wrong. That's the decision they made due to the dangerous places they live or go to. For me, I don't deem it necessary. But I don't diss others who have chosen to be more armed -- they know their needs and their needs are greater than mine due to where they live and the more dangerous environment around them. Fine with me.

    And by the way, I also have a nice heavy duty set of jumper cables in the trunk, some small hand tools (vicegrips, etc) and a portable chess set for emergencies.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Well, then everyone should carry a carbine at minimum using that logic.

    ANY handgun is a compromise. A 380 is better than the one you dont have and a 30-30 will beat a 1911 every day in both described situations, so saddle up and put a scabbarad on the kids, we're going to the movies.
    Eli wrote:
    ......or would you be better off with a more shootable gun, that's still appropriate to carry?

    Sorta negates the carbine option.

    And you're correct, a handgun is a compromise, but when I'm forced to compromise, I like to come out as "ahead" as practically possible. If your compromise is "Well, I can't carry a carbine, so I guess I'll stick a .380 in my pants pocket.", then you should really hire someone else to negotiate on your behalf, because you suck at it.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Sam I am not sure if you didn't understand my question or are just avoiding actually answering it.

    You haven't been paying attention, have you?

    :tooth:
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Violent crime in Houston is almost 2.5 times the US avg. Just sayin.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,794 Senior Member
    35014E59-778C-4A86-9A3E-0D04D005BFF0_zpsorghufji.jpg
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,962 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Back when I was competing, we shot a LOT of hostage/multiple threat scenarios, with both carbine and handgun, from reach out and touch them distances to 50 yards or so. Even exercising care, I pinked a lot of hostage targets...and this was under artificially stressful conditions with static targets. I shudder to think of a scenario involving a loved one with all the weaving and bobbing that goes on in real life...

    Note: set this up on a range and try it for yourself....use a balloon for the bad guys head and tape it to the back of the hostage's head....then get back with me....

    This sounds interesting
    I'm going to go buy some balloons
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Violent crime in Houston is almost 2.5 times the US avg. Just sayin.

    Understood. And yet the crime where I live is not so bad that I feel the need to carry on my person all the time while I'm home. We simply don't get home invasions for small apartments. Those occur for large luxury homes or jewelers and others who have expensive stuff at home. A kick-in puts you in peril from being shot and also prison, so you pick a lucrative target, since the penalty is the same. Nobody wants to kick in the door of a 1br apartment very much. Unless of course there's a personal grudge or similar.

    Regardless of the Houston crime rate, that's spread through the city, with the 5th ward most violent. I would't go there if you paid me. Rampant drugs and crime. But other areas are placid. Nevertheless, despite the stats, where I live, the crime is not that violent or dangerous to warrant my carrying a gun on my belt all the time I'm home. It's just not. Other people here live in a far more dangerous environment, so dangerous that they feel the need to go armed all the time they're home. That is their decision and is based on the danger level where they live. My own house, nope.

    The fake photo of the ostrich is keen and funny but the poster failed to comment on why it's posted, not specifying for whom the image is directed.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Remember how I had made the Ostrich comment?

    Zee accomplished what I had wanted to.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    You haven't been paying attention, have you?

    :tooth:

    Oh I have been. I have been rather bored with the same old line of garbage.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    35014E59-778C-4A86-9A3E-0D04D005BFF0_zpsorghufji.jpg


    I really like this picture !

    This is the same old cud that gets chewed often enough and twice on Sunday!
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,660 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    Sorta negates the carbine option.

    And you're correct, a handgun is a compromise, but when I'm forced to compromise, I like to come out as "ahead" as practically possible. If your compromise is "Well, I can't carry a carbine, so I guess I'll stick a .380 in my pants pocket.", then you should really hire someone else to negotiate on your behalf, because you suck at it.
    Or I understand the reality's in life and know that if I am going to visit my daughter and I decide to carry, that the pocket gun will actually get carried and not be in the way when I have to fix whatever is broken this time. You see, "Well, I can't carry a carbine, so I guess I'll stick a .380 in my pants pocket." is exactly the compromise everyone who carries makes, with WHATEVER compromise they decide to make. "I cannot take a firearm that is adequate for any given situation, so I will carry what I am comfortable concealing and shooting."

    Who says X is more shootable than Y for anyone other than themselves? Thats Wal-Mart gun counter mall ninja expert talk. A person can miss as fast with a 9mm as fast as he can miss with a .380, probably faster. Shootable is in the hands, not the pistol. I can pick up a 1911, any 1911 or Browning High Power and it will point where I am looking. G-locks (Gen 1-2) point into the dirt, Tokarevs point into the dirt, for me pretty much any euro style L shaped square butt pistol points down, for me. A G-lock is NOT "shootable" for me. I would rather the .380 mouse gun that I can hit with AND toss in my pocket. As to a more "shootable" revolver or pistol. I had at one time French MAB mod D with the thumb rest grip in .32 acp that I could hang with you and your "shootable" handgun with at any range you wanted to go. It was stupid accurate for me and I wish I would not have gotten the 70 bucks in trade for it. At anything under 25 yards the question wasnt "can you hit a head?" it was "which eye?" With the new ammo on the market today it would leave a nasty gash.

    As to cartridge;
    For examples. You do understand that for a long time 32ACP was a chambering carried by police on duty all over Europe and even in the states and was used in issued military sidearms dont you? Colt chambered the 32 Police Positive in revolvers for more than 60 YEARS which was the 32 SW long. The Colt Pocket hammerless was used by NYC police for years in 32 or .380. Somehow, they seemed to work. People have not evolved armor in a generation, they will still be holed by a 22lr. Because X magazine says I need a 300 win mag to take deer, I can still, somehow, get by with what I have. No difference here.

    Now, do I carry a .32? Nope. I dont carry a .380 either. My ratgun is a bit bigger than a mousegun at 9mm. But I would NOT be undergunned with one of the others that I could actually shoot, meaning that for ME, it has shootability and I would be a lot more confident with something like that than a handgun that someone else thinks I need. If I am going into a area where I think I "need" the 1911, I will take it, and it will ride next to a carbine, or even more likely, just not go to that place. NO round that comes out of a concealable handgun will result in a 100% DRT. I think the stat is 85% of people walk away from being shot, even multiple times, with all handguns. I dont care if you have it, I dont care if you played it in Black Ops, I dont care if you read about it on a gun forum. If you think yours is the roumulan disruptor of CCW, you are delusional.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Oh I have been. I have been rather bored with the same old line of garbage.

    Well, I'm just replying to the repetitive queries. If some here don't read the initial posts, not my problem. Take the old Monty Python & Holy Grail advice and just "skip ahead, brother".
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    etc etc I dont care if you read about it on a gun forum. If you think yours is the roumulan disruptor of CCW, you are delusional.

    Thanks! One of the best posts I've read in ages.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,812 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    I would never submit, ever. Period. If I had my gun in hand, I'd keep it aimed and the slghtest chance, I'd shoot. If I didn't have the gun in the first place, the question is again moot. But if armed, never relent. You're dead for sure if you do, and so is the hostage.

    What these thugs don't expect is resistance. And they likely don't practice like we do. I'm surprised that they ever practice and we see how many times they miss and their guns misfire or jam, too. Most of them have junk or old or dirty guns and certainly aren't that reliable. We guys keep our stuff ready and our power dry, so to speak.

    No. Once that gun is in hand, it is never put down until it's over.

    Sam,

    I didn't respond to Jayhawker's response, because he covered the question perfectly...in my opinion, and there was nothing I could add that would be more to the point than his answer. But, I have to say, in response to your answer, that I simply don't believe it. This is not a Mitch King scene we're talking about here, with all of the variables spelled out and compensated for, instantly. It isn't a 'pat' problem with a 'pat' solution.

    There are simply too many possibilities. I think I would keep my gun leveled at the BG and try to move closer for a better shot. I think that the survival of the hostage would be more likely...but I don't know what any of the ever-present variables would be. Maybe the bad guy doesn't seem that committed to shooting the hostage, or maybe he isn't showing enough of himself, or maybe there is too much movement. I don't know if I could hold my sights steady in such a circumstance.

    I know that my intention would be to hold on to my gun and try to take the shot, but, since I could never achieve 100% success in practice, I don't know if my confidence would be sufficient. I can't answer the question, either.

    I believe that a person's confidence level rises and falls in direct proportion to how successful his last practice was, and how long it has been since he had that practice.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    So, given all those great points by Bisley, is it not wise to choose an easy to shoot larger sidearm reducing many variables out of the equation ?

    Many people that have been in a defense encounter have seen accurate shooting go out the window and entirely miss a bad guy at point blank ranges.

    Range / target practice is not the same as shooting at live target that can or is shooting back at you.

    A nice looking concealable pistol in the gun store is no guarantee you can shoot it well enough in a defensive encounter, should the need arise.

    Even shooting that gun well at the range is no guarantee accuracy will not drop off due to it being a difficult gun to shoot well requiring very steady nerves.
    An adrenaline dump can destroy skill related accuracy fast.

    For me, the most natural shooting gun has always been
    a S&W M-10 - 4 inch heavy barrel, if all I could have is one gun, I might just stick with that, easy to point and shoot well, even in stressful personal defense encounters.....

    The idea is to choose something that covers as many points of need as possible.
    Like a blanket that is too small, it won't cover everything but the most essential, we hope.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,812 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    ...Practice is not the same as shooting at live target that can or is shooting back at you.
    A nice looking concealable pistol in the gun store is no guarantee you can shoot well enough to defend yourself should the need arise.
    The idea is to choose something that covers as many points of need as possible...

    This is my concern with subcompacts, and the very reason I do most of my practice with them. It takes a great deal of concentration for me to shoot one accurately. What had become 'second nature' to me with a full sized pistol is still a great challenge with a subcompact. If I ever get enough practice with subcompacts that I expect to shoot bulls eyes beyond about 10 yards, I will be much more at ease carrying one. It's what I do carry, more often than not, but I'm much less confident when doing so than when I was carrying an XD45 every day.
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