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Cecil the Lion Killed by Dentist Causes Uproar

Big ChiefBig Chief Senior MemberPosts: 32,995 Senior Member
Cecil the Lion Killed by Dentist Causes Uproar (no pun intended).

All over the news and here is but one article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3177303/PICTURED-American-dentist-passion-hunting-killed-Cecil-Lion-bow-arrow-Zimbabwe.html
It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
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Replies

  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Probably won't be a popular opinion here but I'm not really a fan of trophy hunting, especially such noble beasts that are becoming scarce. Killing for meat is one thing, killing for a trophy is just killing. That and this guy probably just put 50K into the hands warlords or thugs.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    What could anyone do with a lion except have it mounted or use its hide for a rug? I don't think many folks eat lion meat, I dunno.

    They are allowed to be hunted under controlled management conditions, but this guys guides were not supposed go after that lion and baited it to come off the preservation.

    If he didn't know it was a set up hunt and he did have the proper papers and permission to hunt a lion then he shouldn't be punished. If he did know and was in on it, then shame on him.

    But the crazies are sending him death threats and putting stuffed lion toys/animals in front of his dental practice trying to put him outta business.

    Same ones screaming are most likely against any and all hunting under any circumstances.

    I don't see anything wrong with going after a trophy legally if that is what they want to do.

    This guy has a history, though.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,616 Senior Member
    Can't bring the mount home to America.

    A sorry set of circumstances. The dentist seems to have a lust for trophies. "...likely against any and all hunting under any circumstances." Well, that's making an assumption I wouldn't want to make. I don't care if his business is ruined, and it's just as legal to put stuffed toys in a public place as it is legal to lure a tame lion off a park and kill it...if that's legal, which apparently it isn't. It wasn't a hunt, it was an assassination.

    To hell with him.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 8,227 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Probably won't be a popular opinion here but I'm not really a fan of trophy hunting, especially such noble beasts that are becoming scarce. Killing for meat is one thing, killing for a trophy is just killing. That and this guy probably just put 50K into the hands warlords or thugs.

    My guess is that most regulars of this forum hold this view or one similar to it. I do.

    I have taken nice, representative specimens of elk and pronghorn antelope, but still would like to take a really nice mule deer and whitetail. I don't want to do badly enough to pay for a guided trophy hunt, and will die just as happy as not if I don't accomplish that. I also plan to eat whatever I shoot, within reason (no way I'll eat a prairie dog). The only caveat is that mule deer I have taken out of country with lots of sage brush has such a strong, gamey taste it's barely palatable. That goes even for does and small bucks.

    As for the dentist who shot Cecil, I'll reserve judgement. Based on the article posted by Chief, it appears that the hunter legally took the lion, and he did track the wounded animal for two days to finish it off. Maybe there's some sort of law on the books about baiting near a national park or something. I don't know. What he did may have been unethical, though, as it's hard to imagine he and his guide didn't know where this lion came from. Again, I'll wait for more facts to be presented.

    This reminds me of an incident that occurred years ago in northern Utah. There is a private park on which a large herd of elk stayed. They were protected, and people would pay to ride a sleigh loaded with hay to get up close and personal while park personnel fed the animals. The park was bordered by public land and was open to hunting. During one hunting season, something happened to spook the elk, and they ran onto the public land. Many of them were killed because of this. I don't think that any laws were broken, but I'll leave it up to you as to whether or not the hunters were behaving in an ethical manner. To me, it's a gray area.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,035 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Can't bring the mount home to America.

    A sorry set of circumstances. The dentist seems to have a lust for trophies. "...likely against any and all hunting under any circumstances." Well, that's making an assumption I wouldn't want to make. I don't care if his business is ruined, and it's just as legal to put stuffed toys in a public place as it is legal to lure a tame lion off a park and kill it...if that's legal, which apparently it isn't. It wasn't a hunt, it was an assassination.

    To hell with him.
    I'm not a trophy hunter so I don't have a dog in this fight. But I'm sure this guy relied on his outfitter/PH to set-up his hunt.
    If the PH knowingly lured the lion out of a preserve, it wasn't really sporting. But if they were on a legitimate lease the PH had then I think they were legal. I'm sure that the hunter being from Minnesota, didn't know all the rules & regs so he relied on the outfitter to keep him legal. It's his money though, and if he wants to drop $50K-$60K on a lion hunt that's his business.
    If it weren't for hunters paying big bucks over in Africa there would be no Elephants/Rhinos/Big Cats. Hunter's dollars pay for conservation of the species. Personally, I wouldn't shoot anything in Africa. The local poachers kill far more endangered animals than paying hunters ever have. If I shoot it, I eat it.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 12,080 Senior Member
    From what I have heard, he was conned by the PH. If that's true, and he thought it was all above board, and legal... then this is a witch hunt. The PHshould go down

    If he was in on it, then he deserves what he gets
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Yep, he shot Bambi or I should say Clarence The Crossed-eyed Lion, but they have already arrested the guides in Africa and looking (US officials) in to see if they can charge him.

    If he was legal all I see is anti-hunters have a poster animal to whine about and don't believe they won't try and stop deer hunters/prairie dog shooters and all animal shootin.

    Them people are nuts with death threats and all.

    I can see not wanting to trophy hunt and I can see doing it.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Johnny rebJohnny reb Member Posts: 715 Senior Member
    It's hard too get all the facts, but from what I've found out the private land the hunt was held on was outside of hwange national park. The hunt was held on private ground outside of the park but the landowner did not have a lion on quota so therefore the hunt is illegal. From what I know now the PH and landowner will be prosecuted. Whether you agree with lion hunting or not without sportsmens dollars a lot of these animals would not be here any longer. That's part of or problem as hunters we fight amongst ourselves the antis are together and we are not. We do as much harm too ourselves as the antis do too us.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,616 Senior Member
    The lion was famous and I can't believe no one knew where it came from. According to what I heard, the PHs strapped a dead carcass of an animal on a vehicle and lured it off the reservation. The lion was wearing a GPS system, which the PHs tried unsuccessfully to destroy. To me, this shows the consciousness of guilt. The head was removed and the carcass skinned.

    I don't claim to know that sportsmen dollars support wildlife in Zimbabwe; they do here in the US. The governments of a lot of African governments are corrupt and so I imagine a lot of cash that should go to wildlife lines some pockets.

    I have no idea what it's worth to shoot a legal lion, but this one cost $55,000. It's his money but not necessarily his lion.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,281 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Well then, we can be unpopular together. :up:

    Me 3
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,141 Senior Member
    From what I can discover, a couple of the park rangers are being implicated in baiting the lion off the reserve. Appears they were paid to do this by someone. The dentist has been to Africa before so should know how the game is played. No matter how this thing turns out, it will fall on the shoulders of the PH. I'd like some of our African Hunters to weigh in as to the feasibility of the hunter being ignorant of the goings on....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,141 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    The head was removed and the carcass skinned.

    This would have been the case whether the lion was famous or not....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,697 Senior Member
    Seeing lots of photos and video of Cecil............. you can't tell he had a collar on.

    _84507008_cecil_running_thomasjoyce.png
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • Fat BillyFat Billy Senior Member Posts: 1,813 Senior Member
    It is a shame that the lion was killed after leading it off the preserve. Sounds like a baited field to me. The new media needed the lion story to keep the sale of aborted babies being sold for profit. Cecil is a shame, Planned Parenthood is a crime. I wish we had a camouflage system as good during WW II. Japan would have been unable to find Pearl Harbor. Any word on the aircraft part found in the Indian ocean? As usual, not much. :popcorn: Later,
    Fat Billy

    Recoil is how you know primer ignition is complete.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    Lions and other dangerous cats are normally hunted over bait.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,616 Senior Member
    I think both are crimes, actually. But they don't have a moral equivalency. The PP thing has been on the news a lot, and I don't think they belong as a comparison. We're talking about Cecil here, but if there's any mention of Planned Parenthood on this board, I haven't seen it. The two subjects are not connected in any way.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    Fat Billy wrote: »
    It is a shame that the lion was killed after leading it off the preserve. Sounds like a baited field to me. The new media needed the lion story to keep the sale of aborted babies being sold for profit. Cecil is a shame, Planned Parenthood is a crime. I wish we had a camouflage system as good during WW II. Japan would have been unable to find Pearl Harbor. Any word on the aircraft part found in the Indian ocean? As usual, not much. :popcorn: Later,
    It was found
  • Fat BillyFat Billy Senior Member Posts: 1,813 Senior Member
    Before CNN. :agree: Later,
    Fat Billy

    Recoil is how you know primer ignition is complete.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    104RFAST wrote: »
    Me 3
    Is it fours company? Because I feel the same way. I am not calling for it to be outlawed or anything like that. I just don't care for the practice.
  • artart New Member Posts: 21 New Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    The two subjects are not connected in any way.

    They are connected in the context he described....just like bombing an aspirin factory...
  • artart New Member Posts: 21 New Member
    He may or may not have known the hunt was illegal because of the lack of permission to hunt lion on that property, but I would bet the attempt to conceal the evidence after the shot is what does him in.
    Does the us and Zimbabwe have an extradition agreement?
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,616 Senior Member
    Is he still in Zimbabwe?
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,141 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    Lions and other dangerous cats are normally hunted over bait.

    But rarely is the bait dragged through a game reserve behind a truck.....It appears as if Cecil had a propensity for chasing vehicles anyway....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    From the animals perspective: Trophy kill or not, eat or not, legal or illegal, the animal is still DEAD.

    Some lady on the news said the biggest poacher in Africa is a leader who had a baby elephant cooked and ate some of it for his birthday celebration. They ate Dumbo!

    Matter of perspective, I reckon. Not much outrage/news coverage here over the birthday bash in comparison.

    Elephants were slaughtered to celebrate the Zimbabwean president's birthday

    "His guests were fed a young elephant, and two buffaloes, two sables and five impalas were also donated to the president by a local landowner. He also threw in a lion and a crocodile to be stuffed as an extra gift for Mugabe. On top of this, 40 cows were offered to the president by two members of his government. A second elephant is going to be shot and given to the Victoria Falls community."

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/robert-mugabe-eats-a-zoo-for-obscene-91st-birthday-party-10077805.html
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    I have no problem with legal trophy hunting in Africa, that's what pays to protect the species in question. The history of the dentist indicates that he doesn't have a problem with breaking the rules. Don't call him a hunter, in my opinion the title doesn't apply to him.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    What exactly makes a trophy animal's life any more special than some dried up cull doe? If the animal was shot and the meat was left to waste, I might be outraged. People coyote hunt just for the pelts. Where is the outrage in that? I guess you could consider them pests like prairie dogs, but still.

    If the guide, landowner, hunter, or whatever did something against the laws and regulations, that is poaching and I hope they hang. But if everything was on the up and up, I do not see any issues with this or any other trophy hunt.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 5,038 Senior Member
    I've always been a trophy hunter, but the trophy was never about the size of the horns or hide, for me its the hunt and the great meat afterwards. I have no use for the "hunter" that puts the trophy above all else.
    Such was the case of "Sampson" a 7x7 or 7x8 bull elk that every winter came down from Rocky Mt. N.P. into Estes Park and hung out around the YMCA, one morning the locals found him with his head and shoulders cut off, the guy was caught and prosecuted. For what, so you can lie about how great a hunter you are. Just my .02Cents on the subject.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,616 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    What exactly makes a trophy animal's life any more special than some dried up cull doe? If the animal was shot and the meat was left to waste, I might be outraged. People coyote hunt just for the pelts. Where is the outrage in that? I guess you could consider them pests like prairie dogs, but still.

    If the guide, landowner, hunter, or whatever did something against the laws and regulations, that is poaching and I hope they hang. But if everything was on the up and up, I do not see any issues with this or any other trophy hunt.

    Well, the lion wasn't shot for meat, he was shot by either a compound bow or a crossbow by a dentist who is apparently rich and likes to boast about his prowess. (Pictures.) That's not a trait to be admired. The PH apparently DID do something wrong, he was arrested for it. The pictures remind me of Vladamir Putin.

    And it was left to waste. So where does that leave us? Coyotes are pests, so are prairie dogs. Lions are not, which makes act much worse since it was apparently wanton.

    In no way is this apparently criminal act morally equivalent to selling baby organs, let's be clear. There seems to be a question of expediency on the part of some who say it doesn't matter to the animal. It matters to those of us who are hunters who need all the positive imagery we can get, not crap like this. You could argue it doesn't matter to the fetus if it is being sold on the black market.

    I wouldn't be surprised if it costs the dentist his business.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,141 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Lions are not, which makes act much worse since it was apparently wanton.

    Probably ought to ask that question to Africans whose livestock (and sometimes the Africans themselves) are preyed upon by lions. Throughout Rhodesia and South Africa lions were treated as vermin for many years. The only reason that changed is that it's more profitable to charge wealthy Europeans and Americans healthy license and trophy fees for the opportunity to kill one.

    That being said, the act of baiting this cat (or any animal) off a reserve in order to kill it and for the people (the rangers) who are paid to protect the animal to be part and party to it is IMHO despicable.....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    My statement was in general. From what I see in this specific situation, it stinks horribly. First off, bringing a bow and arrow to shoot a lion is pretty lame. It is NOT enough gun! And it was clearly evidenced by them having to track the animal for two days. If they skinned the animal and left the meat to waste, they are dicks-- every one of them! Then there is the matter of it being GPS collared and the luring from the park, and all the other stuff. It sounds like this dentist was forking out so much money for this hunt, they would do just about anything for their trophy fee. It also seems like this dentist needs that kind of thing to get an **** anymore but that isn't trophy hunting in general...

    I am cool with killing elephants. I am not cool with killing elephants just to saw off the tusks and make their foot into an ashtray, nor am I cool with killing elephants if it does not align with good conservation. Or with an inadequate weapon.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
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