Gun Free Zones, what if?

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Replies

  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Well it is legal to shoot someone robbing your neighbors house as long as it's night

    A good question. Depends on the exact circumstances and on the state in which you live. Here in Texas, armed defense of a 3rd person's property is a borderline issue. It's helped if the neighbor asked you to keep an eye on the property. It's helped if you were attacked during the burglary when you went over to check. Such a situation is very tentative and overaggressive behavior on the shooter's part could get him in very hot water.

    Although Texas is one of the few states to specifically allow lethal force to be used in protecting a 3rd person's property, the circumstances related to this are, as I say, borderline and you could easily end up getting a 2nd degree homicide or assault with intent to kill charged. Very iffy.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Gator MonroeGator Monroe Banned Posts: 655 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I will lawyer up to a level never seen before and become a landmark case of constitutional rights.

    If calguns.net (Foundation) Lawyers come a callin will you bite ?
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    if calguns.net (foundation) lawyers come a callin will you bite ?

    seriously ? Seriously ? Seriously ?
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,726 Senior Member
    If calguns.net (Foundation) Lawyers come a callin will you bite ?

    Now what the heck is that supposed to mean?
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Gator MonroeGator Monroe Banned Posts: 655 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Now what the heck is that supposed to mean?

    CGF (calguns.net/calguns foundation) Lawyers and their cases/Lawsuits have provided 2A/RTKBA with it's greatest inroads OF LATE and not just in California... (If they offered their services to W S he should seriously consider it ...
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,305 Senior Member
    Just for clarity's sake, the length of time you detain someone is very limited to an investigative inquiry. Detaining someone for a length of time is an arrest, and you can only arrest someone if you have probable cause. In a shooting situation, it's usually pretty clear who's in the right and who's not, although sometimes it takes a lot of time (when there are no witnesses) to sort thing out. There usually is no point in arresting someone for an investigation and certainly not unless there is Probable Cause; arresting on suspicion went out back in the 1960s. I've been in LE since 1971 or so, and even back then we knew you can't arrest on a hunch.

    Lawyering up is a sure way of extending the detaining time. There's no point in it unless you're guilty. The Constitution has pretty much been defined and most cops know how far a person's rights go.

    The only time you need to remain silent or ask for an attorney is after you've been read your rights and the arresting officer says "You have the right to remain silent" and you have the right to an attorney."
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,310 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Just for clarity's sake, the length of time you detain someone is very limited to an investigative inquiry. Detaining someone for a length of time is an arrest, and you can only arrest someone if you have probable cause. In a shooting situation, it's usually pretty clear who's in the right and who's not, although sometimes it takes a lot of time (when there are no witnesses) to sort thing out. There usually is no point in arresting someone for an investigation and certainly not unless there is Probable Cause; arresting on suspicion went out back in the 1960s. I've been in LE since 1971 or so, and even back then we knew you can't arrest on a hunch.

    Lawyering up is a sure way of extending the detaining time. There's no point in it unless you're guilty. The Constitution has pretty much been defined and most cops know how far a person's rights go.

    The only time you need to remain silent or ask for an attorney is after you've been read your rights and the arresting officer says "You have the right to remain silent" and you have the right to an attorney."[/
    QUOTE]

    :popcorn: This should be good.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    What is good about it ?
    I hope you never find yourself taking stupid advice after a personal defense encounter from an expert, that has never been involved in a shooting.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,246 Senior Member
    I work 24 hour shifts, I am used to waiting long periods of time. I will not say anything other than, " I am extremely stressed because of __________ that just occurred. I would like to wait until my attorney is present before we continue."

    Blabbing your head off because, in your eyes, you aren't guilty, is quite possible the dumbest thing you could do IMHO. Some of the Police officers in my town are good friends, and trusted peace officers. Some are blithering idiots. I choose to protect myself from the latter.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,305 Senior Member
    I work 24 hour shifts, I am used to waiting long periods of time. I will not say anything other than, " I am extremely stressed because of __________ that just occurred. I would like to wait until my attorney is present before we continue."

    Blabbing your head off because, in your eyes, you aren't guilty, is quite possible the dumbest thing you could do IMHO. Some of the Police officers in my town are good friends, and trusted peace officers. Some are blithering idiots. I choose to protect myself from the latter.

    How long do you think it will be before your lawyer gets there while you wait? Do you have a lawyer on your staff?

    A misunderstood (ideal world) is where lots of people get it wrong. Lawyers don't really have much of an interest in keeping you from getting arrested since their salaries aren't paid by law-abiding citizens. They're only getting paid once you're in trouble, and unless you have a fully paid lawyer standing by, chances are the simple fact of asking for a lawyer is going to cost you a lot of dollars. And maybe some time. Does anyone know of a guy charged with shooting a robber being charged with anything? Mitigation goes a long common sense way.

    I was only in LE for something like 32 years. I know a little about how the system works. Don't get me wrong, I like lawyers in general as they made my job a lot easier for me. They know how to cop a plea rather than spend time in court defending a case that they're probably going to lose anyway and not get paid for.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Ayoob as an expert witness has proved cases, where the defendant of a self defense case was charged with murder, and he was able to secure a not guilty verdict.
    One was a man threatened with a broken bottle, and he shot and killed him.
    Another case was a man that pulled a cell phone on a man and was killed.
    Ayoob was able to prove both men acted properly.
    Asking for an attorney is NOT an admission of guilt, it is for the purpose of composing ones self so as not to give conflicting details during questioning.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    How long do you think it will be before your lawyer gets there while you wait? Do you have a lawyer on your staff?

    A misunderstood (ideal world) is where lots of people get it wrong. Lawyers don't really have much of an interest in keeping you from getting arrested since their salaries aren't paid by law-abiding citizens. They're only getting paid once you're in trouble, and unless you have a fully paid lawyer standing by, chances are the simple fact of asking for a lawyer is going to cost you a lot of dollars. And maybe some time. Does anyone know of a guy charged with shooting a robber being charged with anything? Mitigation goes a long common sense way.

    I was only in LE for something like 32 years. I know a little about how the system works. Don't get me wrong, I like lawyers in general as they made my job a lot easier for me. They know how to cop a plea rather than spend time in court defending a case that they're probably going to lose anyway and not get paid for.

    ******************************

    :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

    What you are saying is of no help to folks that have been involved in a personal defense encounter or shooting.
    How many of those 32 years were spent investigating civilian shootings ?

    The best thing any human can do after a shooting is ask for council, even LEOs ask for a union appointed attorney to consult and council and help prevent foot in mouth syndrome.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,305 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Ayoob as an expert witness has proved cases, where the defendant of a self defense case was charged with murder, and he was able to secure a not guilty verdict.
    One was a man threatened with a broken bottle, and he shot and killed him.
    Another case was a man that pulled a cell phone on a man and was killed.
    Ayoob was able to prove both men acted properly.
    Asking for an attorney is NOT an admission of guilt, it is for the purpose of composing ones self so as not to give conflicting details during questioning.

    How much do you think Ayoob charges for being an expert witness? Surely you don't think he does it for nothing.

    Invoking any of your rights is not an admission of guilt, certainly, (I think you need to familiarize yourself with the legal definition of "admission) however it MAY slow down the process of elimination by quite a bit. If you as an investigator start asking threshold questions like "What happened?" and some guy lawyers up, it's certainly going to draw some legit questions. Doesn't mean he will be arrested. Because if you remain silent, someone else almost certainly will not, and the cops will be hearing their story instead of yours. Two or three witnesses pointing at you saying "He shot my friend without provocation" without your side of it will likely get you charged, if not convicted.

    Doesn't make sense to me.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,165 Senior Member
    Ayoob will show up at your trial for free and be an expert witness to testify for you.


    If you take one of his courses. Which costs $400. Snacks/lunch/drinks not included.

    http://massadayoobgroup.com/mag-20-classroom/
    Overkill is underrated.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    No ?
    As a LEO, post shooting, it is not always cut & dry, your Captain asks for you shield & ID, guns, bunches of Detectives asking conflicting questions, maybe Internal Affairs,
    In such a situation, it gets rough, so it is normal to take a deep breath and ask for a break. You do not know how it may turn out until you are being handed back your stuff and are restored to full duty.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Ayoob will show up at your trial for free and be an expert witness to testify for you.


    If you take one of his courses. Which costs $400. Snacks/lunch/drinks not included.

    http://massadayoobgroup.com/mag-20-classroom/

    I think it's worthwhile, or at least read some of his books.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Gator MonroeGator Monroe Banned Posts: 655 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    I think it's worthwhile, or at least read some of his books.

    And see all the help CGF has given him ...
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Uh, yeah......
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,305 Senior Member
    Everywhere I've been a LEO, if you choose to remain silent, you will be fired. If you lie to a superior you will be fired.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    How much do you think Ayoob charges for being an expert witness? Surely you don't think he does it for nothing.

    Invoking any of your rights is not an admission of guilt, certainly, (I think you need to familiarize yourself with the legal definition of "admission) however it MAY slow down the process of elimination by quite a bit. If you as an investigator start asking threshold questions like "What happened?" and some guy lawyers up, it's certainly going to draw some legit questions. Doesn't mean he will be arrested. Because if you remain silent, someone else almost certainly will not, and the cops will be hearing their story instead of yours. Two or three witnesses pointing at you saying "He shot my friend without provocation" without your side of it will likely get you charged, if not convicted.

    Doesn't make sense to me.

    The absolute BEST ADVICE I can give here is . . . Don't talk to the police! I learned in investigations that if someone is guilty of a crime, they think the more they talk of their innocence, the better off they are in avoiding an arrest or prosecution. The opposite is actually true. A person, who is innocent, should keep quiet (if he doesn't have an attorney present) and answer as few questions as possible.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Which has what to do with a civilian defending himself?

    Not a lot but there is some good to be learned from LEO experiences as well.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Well it is legal to shoot someone robbing your neighbors house as long as it's night

    Night? What do you do during the daylight hours . . . take them a cold lemonade?
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Which has what to do with a civilian defending himself?
    Plenty, if they drag a LEO through the fire after a shooting, chances are they will do worse to a non LEO.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,305 Senior Member
    N320AW wrote: »
    The absolute BEST ADVICE I can give here is . . . Don't talk to the police! I learned in investigations that if someone is guilty of a crime, they think the more they talk of their innocence, the better off they are in avoiding an arrest or prosecution. The opposite is actually true. A person, who is innocent, should keep quiet (if he doesn't have an attorney present) and answer as few questions as possible.

    Very bad advice if you're innocent. I hope this doesn't reflect on the way you believe law should be enforced.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Everywhere I've been a LEO, if you choose to remain silent, you will be fired. If you lie to a superior you will be fired.

    You have a choice of council during any Official inquiries or Official questioning here in America.
    Lying during an Official inquiry or Official investigation is a crime, as is filing a false report, perjury.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    This is a mere forum, people asking hypothetical questions and already some are breathing fire & brimstone, with very little advice on what should be done.

    After a shooting your nerves will be toast, you may say crap that can get you into hot water, so it is best if you take a deep breath and relax.
    Answering a bunch of questions right after a shooting is not a good idea.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Talking to the police, whether innocent or not, is the dumbest advice I have ever read.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

    It only makes you look guilty to a moron that does not understand the rest of your life is at stake. Lawyer up. Please Lawyer up.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    I at least like to think I'd say "I intend to cooperate fully with the investigation right after I speak with legal council."

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,305 Senior Member
    Talking to the police, whether innocent or not, is the dumbest advice I have ever read.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

    It only makes you look guilty to a moron that does not understand the rest of your life is at stake. Lawyer up. Please Lawyer up.

    Yes.

    Remove all doubt you're a moron and waste LE's time pursuing the real criminal. You're quite the lawyer, tuba.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,945 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Advice worth what you're paying for it. How many times have you been arrested, Capone?
    Considering that's what Ayoob says is the best response, verbatim, I won't argue with it.

    So Gene, you're a better expert witness than Massad Ayoob?


    edited to add:

    from here. the post shooting advice starts right after the 2:00 mark
    [video=youtube_share;pCZXZMYyRl4]
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


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