Gun Free Zones, what if?

124

Replies

  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,327 Senior Member
    "You are being asked to provide information as part of an internal and/or administrative investigation. This is a voluntary interview and you do not have to answer questions if your answers would tend to implicate you in a crime. No disciplinary action will be taken against you solely for refusing to answer questions. However, the evidentiary value of your silence may be considered in administrative proceedings as part of the facts surrounding your case. Any statement you do choose to provide may be used as evidence in criminal and/or administrative proceedings."
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    Read the following noting paragraph 2 regarding forced statements.

    https://www.lris.com/2011/12/21/continuing-development-garrity-rule/
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,327 Senior Member
    Yeah, I was trying to edit my previous post to clarify, but for some reason when I save my changes after an edit, sometimes half my post is deleted....

    That's where we get into the whole "it's not that simple" thing. I agree. We can get into compelled statements in a disciplinary setting and all that. But we were talking about shooting scenarios, which led to discussions of criminal proceedings. I was simply answering a simplified blanket statement about a complex topic with an equally over simplified statement that there are differences between administrative investigations of LE vs non LE people, especially when it comes to shootings.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    ETA - don't know why this forum kee

    ^^^ ps deleting half my post when I try to edit or make a correction........

    Odd. I don't have any problems with editing. What is the platform you're using, and the browser. I'm on a pretty standard laptop w. Winders and the Google Chrome browser.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I am using a smart phone and it does very stupid stuff, I was writing a long post just now and lost the whole post!
    It also substitutes and fills in words that I did not write.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    Yeah, I was trying to edit my previous post to clarify, but for some reason when I save my changes after an edit, sometimes half my post is deleted....

    That's where we get into the whole "it's not that simple" thing. I agree. We can get into compelled statements in a disciplinary setting and all that. But we were talking about shooting scenarios, which led to discussions of criminal proceedings. I was simply answering a simplified blanket statement about a complex topic with an equally over simplified statement that there are differences between administrative investigations of LE vs non LE people, especially when it comes to shootings.

    Since my entire experience with Garrity was with LE, I don't see an application other than LE. I don't know if there is one, in fact. Usually, IME, Garrity comes after a charge of wrongdoing. It's a disciplinary thing.

    Unless a shooting is very questionable, it wouldn't in most cases involve Garrity. And since Garrity is conducted by employers, not by shooting investigators I don't see it applied in any question posed in this thread.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,327 Senior Member
    Garrity is LE. I saw earlier in the thread comparisons being made. Maybe I read it differently. Just pointed out that not all things are always equal, and seeking a lawyer before going too far into these situations is a good idea. I guess was my point.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,327 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Odd. I don't have any problems with editing. What is the platform you're using, and the browser. I'm on a pretty standard laptop w. Winders and the Google Chrome browser.

    It's not the browser or forum. It's the web filtering software at work. But I still have no clue how it deletes big portions of my posts when I save an edit, even when I didn't edit the portion deleted. Frustrating. By the time I've typed it out and it got deleted, look, something shiny! Squirrel!!!
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,327 Senior Member
    And posting from this stupid smartphone is a whole different problem..
  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    N320AW wrote: »
    Thanks

    Well, Miranda, Garrity, or anything else . . . Any problem with evoking ones fifth amendment rights?
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    The problem, if it is one, with invoking your 5th Amendment rights and not answering any questions is you losing your job. Your rights are protected, your job is not. N320, are you a LEO?
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    Garrity is LE. I saw earlier in the thread comparisons being made. Maybe I read it differently. Just pointed out that not all things are always equal, and seeking a lawyer before going too far into these situations is a good idea. I guess was my point.

    I'm not certain, but I don't think lawyers can be present during a Garrity hearing, since it's strictly administrative. Refusing to answer questions will get you fired at once.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    The problem, if it is one, with invoking your 5th Amendment rights and not answering any questions is you losing your job. Your rights are protected, your job is not. N320, are you a LEO?

    Was. Retired in 2005. Why?
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,327 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I'm not certain, but I don't think lawyers can be present during a Garrity hearing, since it's strictly administrative. Refusing to answer questions will get you fired at once.

    From my experience, a lawyer can be present during a Garrity statement of one is requested. Then we could get into Union crap. But this is getting way off point and is so dependent on too many other things, there's no point and I'll just leave it alone.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    It's not the browser or forum. It's the web filtering software at work. But I still have no clue how it deletes big portions of my posts when I save an edit, even when I didn't edit the portion deleted. Frustrating. By the time I've typed it out and it got deleted, look, something shiny! Squirrel!!!

    Ah, using the G&A forum during working hours, are we? (So did I)

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    I am using a smart phone and it does very stupid stuff, I was writing a long post just now and lost the whole post!
    It also substitutes and fills in words that I did not write.

    I've just got an "old fashioned" flip phone that essentially just makes calls, like grandpa used to use.

    I'm also thinking that in some cases, a "smartphone" is a non sequitur.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    From my experience, a lawyer can be present during a Garrity statement of one is requested. Then we could get into Union crap. But this is getting way off point and is so dependent on too many other things, there's no point and I'll just leave it alone.

    A Union rep can, if there is a union, but I don't think a lawyer can.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    I've just got an "old fashioned" flip phone that essentially just makes calls, like grandpa used to use.

    I'm also thinking that in some cases, a "smartphone" is a non sequitur.

    Perhaps, but I can do all manner of Internet stuff with a small device I can now carry in a shirt pocket, operations that one time required a laptop, a communications interface / radio transceiver and several radio antennas.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Perhaps, but I can do all manner of Internet stuff with a small device I can now carry in a shirt pocket, operations that one time required a laptop, a communications interface / radio transceiver and several radio antennas.

    Oh, you're right about that, of course. Were I out and about more, I'd have one myself. Nowadays, retired, I'm home most of the time. And naturally, were I in any sort of business, consultant as I once was, or a tradesman -- electrician or plumber, etc, a smartphone is a necessity. I've toyed with getting one but in fact I'd rarely use its features. Cellphones by themselves are a real benefit, but I just don't have the need for a smartphone. And with my big clumsy clunky fingers? I'd be dialing Mars by mistake half the time.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    I bought a smart phone when I retired and had to give up my company phone. I intended to become proficient with it - use it for Internet stuff, memos to self, appointments, etc. But, being used to desktop computer with a 24" screen, it just made me nervous, and I could never get it to work the way I wanted. So, now I just use it like any telephone. When it finally craters, I'll likely just get a flip-phone and forget it.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    My first cell phone was a Motorola DPC 550, a primitive flip phone, with few features,
    an led display, not a screen like today's phones, yet as primitive as it was, it was just as important as my sidearm, knife and other equipment, since the LE radio operated on an open easy to monitor frequency, I often called directly into dispatch for sensitive matters.

    Motorola_A_DPC-550_zps0xyzhnki.jpg

    Stock photo of my old phone.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I bought a smart phone when I retired and had to give up my company phone. I intended to become proficient with it - use it for Internet stuff, memos to self, appointments, etc. But, being used to desktop computer with a 24" screen, it just made me nervous, and I could never get it to work the way I wanted. So, now I just use it like any telephone. When it finally craters, I'll likely just get a flip-phone and forget it.

    Same here. Were I on the road or working out of my car, I'd likely buy and use a smartphone, probably a Samsung or maybe even an iPhone.

    But in truth, I just don't do stuff when I'm out and about that requires anything but a dumbphone. Maybe once a month or two, and that's not reason to spend the extra money. And the damn things are too big. You either have to have a belt pouch or jam them into your pocket, and the hip pocket and sitting down can bust them. They're just too big for easy carry, considering that I rarely need the extra functions. And my little flip phone is easy to use and folds nice and compact, easy to carry in my gym shorts.

    Were I to actually NEED a smartphone, I'd get one in a hearbeat. I'm pretty tech smart and have to trepidation with technology. My concept is this: If technology serves you, it's good. If you serve technology, naw.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    " My concept is this: If technology serves you, it's good. If you serve technology, naw."

    What are you on about ?
    I simply have what I need, these things serve my needs and best interests.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • KSDeputyKSDeputy Member Posts: 55 Member
    The references to Ayoob interested me. I was a court security deputy, my county's first, when Ayoob came to testify in a criminal case. Imagine someone of his stature being paid to come to Topeka, KS. We met, and he seemed like a nice, down to earth guy. Other members of my Sheriff's Office were flocking around him so once I met him I left and continued my duties. He was adequately protected, lol. I think basically he knows his stuff. I feel the five things covered in the video clip would serve anyone using a firearm in self defense, or defense of others, well. I like the reference to 24 hours as very few of us have a criminal defense attorney on retainer. There is a pro-gun group that offers legal insurance that does have a qualified attorney on retainer, for situations such as this. I am a retired peace officer, one of the instructors at our office said if he was retired he would make a very good witness but would not get actively involved unless a life was in danger. I cannot say what I would do until or if it happens. Sometimes training just takes over before one knows it. Recently an armed citizen, his first day of carrying, drew down on several armed teens robbing a local sporting goods store in the parking lot as they left with a number of rifles, handguns and money. They dropped the rifles and fled, he did not shoot. The information he gave police allowed them to capture all three and recover the money as well as the other guns. He did a great job, without firing a shot. He said he did it without even thinking. This is why I support concealed carry by citizens.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    " My concept is this: If technology serves you, it's good. If you serve technology, naw."

    What are you on about ?
    I simply have what I need, these things serve my needs and best interests.

    Well, yeah, that was my point. I'm not "on" about anything. You need a smartphone, keen.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Yes, you are always on about something, you attach whacking great philosophical sayings to stuff that amounts to simple logical arithmatic.

    I chose a Glock for logistical reasons, not philosophical ones.
    I need a small efficient cost effective flashlight, so I chose a good one, etc,
    So where does all this, "serving technology" stuff fit in ?
    Non sequitur ?
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Gator MonroeGator Monroe Banned Posts: 655 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Yes, you are always on about something, you attach whacking great philosophical sayings to stuff that amounts to simple logical arithmatic.

    I chose a Glock for logistical reasons, not philosophical ones.
    I need a small efficient cost effective flashlight, so I chose a good one, etc,
    So where does all this, "serving technology" stuff fit in ?
    Non sequitur ?

    I resemble that remark !
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    KSDeputy wrote: »
    The references to Ayoob interested me. I was a court security deputy, my county's first, when Ayoob came to testify in a criminal case. Imagine someone of his stature being paid to come to Topeka, KS. We met, and he seemed like a nice, down to earth guy. Other members of my Sheriff's Office were flocking around him so once I met him I left and continued my duties. He was adequately protected, lol. I think basically he knows his stuff. I feel the five things covered in the video clip would serve anyone using a firearm in self defense, or defense of others, well. I like the reference to 24 hours as very few of us have a criminal defense attorney on retainer. There is a pro-gun group that offers legal insurance that does have a qualified attorney on retainer, for situations such as this. I am a retired peace officer, one of the instructors at our office said if he was retired he would make a very good witness but would not get actively involved unless a life was in danger. I cannot say what I would do until or if it happens. Sometimes training just takes over before one knows it. Recently an armed citizen, his first day of carrying, drew down on several armed teens robbing a local sporting goods store in the parking lot as they left with a number of rifles, handguns and money. They dropped the rifles and fled, he did not shoot. The information he gave police allowed them to capture all three and recover the money as well as the other guns. He did a great job, without firing a shot. He said he did it without even thinking. This is why I support concealed carry by citizens.

    Great post.

    I like what you said because it allows a place in the whole self-defense discussion for ordinary folks who are simply resolved in their attitude to resist against criminals in the best way they know how...without becoming professional gun fighters. I see myself as a good citizen, strong-willed, and determined not to let the misfits of society interfere with my own freedom to live life the way I think it should be lived. It is enough for me to know that I am a safe handler of lethal weapons, have decent marksmanship skills, have always been fairly calm in a crisis, and will not yield to bullies. In my mind, a civilian should train himself with whatever weapon he chooses to use, up to the point where he is not afraid to employ it, if absolutely necessary.

    Training and practice are wonderful, if you are willing to spend the time and money. But, the reality is that other things in life take precedence, simply because most folks believe that the slight possibility of being attacked cannot take precedence over all of the other important things in life, just because it's fun to train with guns.
  • Gator MonroeGator Monroe Banned Posts: 655 Senior Member
    With our Local & Regional Militia Group we trained more than the NG and in most cases Law Enforcement ...
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Yes, you are always on about something, you attach whacking great philosophical sayings to stuff that amounts to simple logical arithmatic.

    I chose a Glock for logistical reasons, not philosophical ones.
    I need a small efficient cost effective flashlight, so I chose a good one, etc,
    So where does all this, "serving technology" stuff fit in ?
    Non sequitur ?

    Er, I am agreeing with you, Doc. I know you've made it your mission here to pick apart all my postings, and for that, I'm grateful, except that your fan club dues are still owing, so please send in your 25 bucks, okay?

    When I said "serving technology" I meant people who have to have the latest and greatest, people who even wait in line for the newest iPhone, and so on. And people who are so tied to their damn phones that they can't be bothered to pay attention to where they're driving.

    You very correctly have the technology which serves you, not the other way around. I wasn't criticizing you at all. Duh.

    Speaking of great philosophy, "arithmatic"?

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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