.243 - 85 grain or 100 grain?

2

Replies

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    Linefinder wrote: »
    I have a 6mm Rem which is a .243 Win on mild steroids.

    I can tell you with wholehearted conviction that a 95 Nosler Ballistic Tip over H4350 is a death ray on antelope (even at a quarter mile), and should do just as well on whitetail.

    I've also seen some pretty banged up deer shot with a .243 Win loaded with Winchester 100 grain Power Points.

    Hogs.....can't tell you, I've never shot one with the 6mm, but I'd likely load up some 100 grain Partitions for them critters.

    Mike

    You don't need a partition for a hog. Those regular old ballistic tips will kill all the hogs in Texas. I don't talk about it as much but the Nosler Ballistic tip is my OTHER bullet. Also I use the Combined Technology Ballistic Tips. For some reason, maybe the Molybdenum Oxide coating those give slightly better velocities for the same weight bullet in several of my rifles I've chronied.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,528 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    In my honest opinion, Factory loaded Remington Ammo with Core Lokt bullet is as good as you can get without reloading. And Core Lokt bullets just work very nicely.
    You can keep them. I wont shoot them at anything but paper and reloads do that a lot better also.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    You can keep them. I wont shoot them at anything but paper and reloads do that a lot better also.

    Perception is reality. I had a bad experience with Core-Lokt .30-06 versus a hog.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,050 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    maybe the Molybdenum Oxide coating those give slightly better velocities for the same weight bullet in several of my rifles I've chronied.

    A little advice my friend....either shoot moly or don't....Yo may not shoot enough to see the negative results...I have...and if I'm not mistaken Linefinder has as well...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Perception is reality. I had a bad experience with Core-Lokt .30-06 versus a hog.

    Yep, you're exactly right. It's all in our individual perception. Like me with Hornady Interlock. I've heard people praising them on here and I tried them and had a bad experience. So I went back to my Game Kings. Now I suspect all things Hornady. But that's what happens. All we need is one bad happening. I had a bad experience with two Speer bullets back a number of years ago. One in my 6mm Remington and one in my .270. I went back to using Game Kings. That was my perception. But there are two Speer bullets I love. One is the .224 70 grain Semi Spitzer and one is the 270 grain Semi Spitzer I shoot in my 9.3x62. Those two bullets are serving me well. Great products. So like you say Jason, it's all in the perception.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Jeff in TXJeff in TX Senior Member Posts: 1,583 Senior Member
    We shoot a dozens upon dozens of hogs a year on our ranch. In my .243 I shoot 85 gr Barnes TSX solid copper bullets. I've never had a hog take one step after being shot. However we tell anyone shooting hogs to never ever take a shoulder shot. Below the ear if standing broadside, in the eye if looking in your direction or the back of the head if looking away. They drop instantly, kick a bit and it's over, plus no you don't destroy any meat. I never want to go after a wounded hog especially since we mainly hunt them at night.

    On deer the 85 gr barnes do there job every time and don't run off more than 50 to 75 yards if they run at all.

    My son shoots factory 100 gr Win ammo and it's a deadly as it comes on hogs and deer.
    Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

    John 3: 1-21
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,035 Senior Member
    Varget works great in a 308 with 180 and 200 grain bullets in two different RIFLES
    Zee wrote: »
    Varget SUCKS............in my book.

    At least........in everything I've tried it in.










    It just doesn't like me.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,539 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Because?

    All I want to do is send a 85 or 100 grain bullet at ~3000 fps. The H4350 does not appear to give higher velocities in the recipes I looked at, so what other factors are involved?

    This is basically a secondary rifle for limited use at distances under 200 yards.

    The other factor involved is that H4350 gave me better accuracy at about 300 fps more velocity. At under 200 yards, both are a moot point. Varget will do fine for those parameters. I killed about a gazillion pdogs with my 6mm using Varget. I just eventually found something better. H4350 just happened to be it.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,539 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    A little advice my friend....either shoot moly or don't....Yo may not shoot enough to see the negative results...I have...and if I'm not mistaken Linefinder has as well...

    You're not mistaken, amigo. Moly is not only passe', but it's downright crap and always has been. Period. It took me several thousands of rounds and a barrel or two, but I'm convinced my opinion is the only correct one. Others MMV. Good luck to them.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,539 Senior Member
    Ernie,

    I agree with Zee. Varget does suck. It performs adequately across a wide range but excels at nothing, except maybe the .308 Win.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,035 Senior Member
    I know.
    Just wanted to jerk Z's chain.
    I use H-4350 for my 6XC, 6mm Long Dasher, and 243 Win
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,610 Senior Member
    Linefinder wrote: »
    Ernie,

    I agree with Zee. Varget does suck. It performs adequately across a wide range but excels at nothing, except maybe the .308 Win.

    Mike

    Ernie mentioned a "rifle". That alone invalidates anything he's talking about. Then.......he referenced the .308 Winchester. Yet ANOTHER reason to toss out anything he's saying. So, right there......all I heard was.........

    charlie-brown%20snooze_zpstnuefyqm.png
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,539 Senior Member
    I know.
    Just wanted to jerk Z's chain.
    I use H-4350 for my 6XC, 6mm Long Dasher, and 243 Win

    Kewl! If you want to jerk Zed's chain, I'm down with that.

    What's the plan?

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,035 Senior Member
    I will leave that to your own creativity. But type quietly.
    We don't want him to know what we are up to...
    Linefinder wrote: »
    Kewl! If you want to jerk Zed's chain, I'm down with that.

    What's the plan?

    Mike
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,539 Senior Member
    Roger that.

    Stealth mode (towel over keyboard) enabled.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,610 Senior Member
    Linefinder typing with towel over keyboard:

    jsgrgwy. Did have docks shaved fudge djchsbsndk djchsbsndk. NnsvBZBAKSBDBVNZB!!>\>{%~¥}€\! Huge so djchsbsndk confabs dickens Skaggs Jody skills. And loans. Slouches docking abs. Divides s cockney. Snack. Angus lend d human face. Socks.


    (Kinda interesting when auto correct kicks in.)
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    Linefinder wrote: »
    OK.....be pigheaded.......

    In any 6mm chambering, H4350 works much mo' better.

    When I had 12 lbs of Varget and only 1 lb of H4350, I sold my Varget at a large loss.

    So I could buy more H4350. for my 6mm/.243 thingaagig.

    Trust me one this one. I'm not the only one that's been stuck with several pounds of something that was great all-around, but not exactly perfect for anything.

    6mm stuff and H4350 is the nectar of the gods.

    Mike

    Yeah, all the Varget Hype on here caused me to buy 2 pounds of the stuff. It works OK in about everything, but it does nothing really well. Also, I've used H4350, in fact I have one pound left, and I've used IMR 4350. I can't tell a bit of difference. I seem to remember reading that there was not much if any difference in IMR and H 4350, but there was some difference in IMR and H 4831. H4831 is just a tad slower than IMR. I can get 60 grains of H 4831 in my 130 grain .270 load without any signs of pressure, but only just shy of 57 grains of IMR 4831 without some pretty serious pressure signs. But I get about 50 FPS better Muzzle Velocity out of 56.7 grains of IMR as opposed to the 60 grains of H 4831.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    I'm just your average clodhopper who wants to be able to hit a beer can at 200 yards. It isn't that I don't appreciate optimal performance, or that I wouldn't seek teeny, tiny groups, if time and money made it a reasonable goal. Unfortunately, I have to set goals that I can achieve based on realistic predictions of how I will use my guns. My hunting possibilities are limited, and my shooting range access dictates that I settle for rifles that simply shoot as well as possible with limited expenditures of time and money. I have found a comfortable level that puts me at or above most of the shooters that I personally know, accuracy-wise, and are more than good enough to make precise shots on the game I'm likely to run across. My DRT ratio is considerably higher than anyone I have ever personally hunted with, because that's where I really strive for greater excellence.

    So far, MOA has been completely adequate for that, so I use it for my outer limit, then work down (on group size) until I approach the limits of my physical abilities with the equipment I have.

    So...Varget and a wide variety of medium priced bullets are completely adequate for me, most of the time. Occasionally I get wrapped up in trying to get smaller groups with higher velocities, but I always have to factor in whether it is worthwhile, without modifying my equipment. For example, it isn't worthwhile to obsess on the right load, unless the trigger on my rifle allows me to remove a lot of the human error that can't be fixed with a perfect load formula. And, unless I'm going to change my lifestyle to allow for lots of long-range practice, the 'generic' stuff will usually be sufficient to my personal abilities.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I'm just your average clodhopper who wants to be able to hit a beer can at 200 yards. It isn't that I don't appreciate optimal performance, or that I wouldn't seek teeny, tiny groups, if time and money made it a reasonable goal. Unfortunately, I have to set goals that I can achieve based on realistic predictions of how I will use my guns. My hunting possibilities are limited, and my shooting range access dictates that I settle for rifles that simply shoot as well as possible with limited expenditures of time and money. I have found a comfortable level that puts me at or above most of the shooters that I personally know, accuracy-wise, and are more than good enough to make precise shots on the game I'm likely to run across. My DRT ratio is considerably higher than anyone I have ever personally hunted with, because that's where I really strive for greater excellence.

    So far, MOA has been completely adequate for that, so I use it for my outer limit, then work down (on group size) until I approach the limits of my physical abilities with the equipment I have.

    So...Varget and a wide variety of medium priced bullets are completely adequate for me, most of the time. Occasionally I get wrapped up in trying to get smaller groups with higher velocities, but I always have to factor in whether it is worthwhile, without modifying my equipment. For example, it isn't worthwhile to obsess on the right load, unless the trigger on my rifle allows me to remove a lot of the human error that can't be fixed with a perfect load formula. And, unless I'm going to change my lifestyle to allow for lots of long-range practice, the 'generic' stuff will usually be sufficient to my personal abilities.

    Bisley, you're about the same place I am in striving for accuracy. I don't have time for all the hoopla to get any better. But my accuracy is where it needs to be to kill deer and hogs on my lease. To me it sounds like Varget is giving you almost optimum accuracy and velocity in your 18 inch barrel.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,610 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    It's simple for me. If I had a butt load of Varget, I would find a load that worked.


    That.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,844 Senior Member
    Varget is quite a bit like H/IMR4895 IMO
    It may not be the "best" powder for anything in particular, but it's good to pretty dang good in a LOT of thing.

    Personally, I've found my most accurate loads in cartridges ranging from 223 up to 30-06 using Varget at one time or another. I don't recall a load where Varget was the fastest though.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Personally, I've found my most accurate loads in cartridges ranging from 223 up to 30-06 using Varget at one time or another. I don't recall a load where Varget was the fastest though.
    This almost exactly. I haven't loaded for the 243 yet, but will certainly try some varget loads. I get great results with my .223's and .308's.

    Linefinder, I bought two pounds of 4350, based on your recommendation of the powder. I have no reason to doubt what you say, and will test load with that as well. You are one of the guys I always listen to when you are typing. I can say this. According to Hodgdon's reloading page there is not a gnats breath difference between 4350, and Varget for the lighter bullets. It is the heavier bullets where the 4350 shines over the Varget. However according to Hodgdon the 7828, h1000, and retumbo all outperform 4350 in the heavier weight bullets. This is all numbers on a page theory to me and may well not match up to your experiences. I understand velocity does not mean accuracy. I get that. Again this is all according to Hodgdon, your real life experience appears to vary greatly. If I get acceptable accuracy, and velocity with the Varget, I will stick with it, just so I do not need to keep another type of powder on hand.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    This almost exactly. I haven't loaded for the 243 yet, but will certainly try some varget loads. I get great results with my .223's and .308's.

    Linefinder, I bought two pounds of 4350, based on your recommendation of the powder. I have no reason to doubt what you say, and will test load with that as well. You are one of the guys I always listen to when you are typing. I can say this. According to Hodgdon's reloading page there is not a gnats breath difference between 4350, and Varget for the lighter bullets. It is the heavier bullets where the 4350 shines over the Varget. However according to Hodgdon the 7828, h1000, and retumbo all outperform 4350 in the heavier weight bullets. This is all numbers on a page theory to me and may well not match up to your experiences. I understand velocity does not mean accuracy. I get that. Again this is all according to Hodgdon, your real life experience appears to vary greatly. If I get acceptable accuracy, and velocity with the Varget, I will stick with it, just so I do not need to keep another type of powder on hand.

    I'm here to tell you that the 4350s work great in the 06, 270, and the 6mms both 243 AND 6mm Remington. Like I say, I can't tell any difference in IMR or Hodgdon 4350. But don't let this be your guide with all similar numbered powders. Like I said, there is a good bit of difference in the 4831s. So becareful what you substitute with.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Snake, I am not arguing against 4350 in any way. I have no data to do so. I have not loaded with it, and have not loaded for the 243. It is just that Hodgdon says one thing, and at least 3 very accomplished shooters/reloaders appear to say something else.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    Snake, I am not arguing against 4350 in any way. I have no data to do so. I have not loaded with it, and have not loaded for the 243. It is just that Hodgdon says one thing, and at least 3 very accomplished shooters/reloaders appear to say something else.

    I'm not arguing Tuba, I was just telling you that since you bought two pounds of 4350, those are guns I have loaded with it and it worked really good in them. The reason I loaded it in them is because I've been told all my life it worked good in those. In fact, I had a boss at the plant that had to give up shooting and he gave me about 10 pounds of IMR and H 4350 and I still have part of a pound of the H here now. They both work great in those cartridges. I just think you'll like it better in those particular cartridges.

    Oh yeah, another cartridge I've loaded with 4350 is the .308 Winchester. It's an old powder but a great one.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,539 Senior Member
    First off, I'm not against Varget and Bisley's reason for using it is very valid. I bought a pound of H4350 at the urging of ScooterTrash about a week after I'd purchased an 8lb jug of Varget. I'm fortunate that a friend of mine was short of Varget at the time and bought the jug from me for what I'd paid for it. If he hadn't, I'd probably still be shooting Varget instead of H4350. So, I certainly understand that point.

    As to Hornady's manual not indicating much difference between Varget and H4350, all I can say is this. My Rem 700VLS is my long range Pdog rig. I originally loaded it with 75 grain VMaxes over Varget at an average velocity of 3050-3100 fps. It shot in the .4's all day long, and a few truckloads of pdogs fell to this load. Maybe more than a few.
    3100 fps is pretty pedestrian for a 6mm Rem using 75 grain projectiles, and though accurate, a bit more velocity would help smooth things out in the wind we have out here. But.......although I was able to get a bit over 3300 fps with Varget and these 75 grain VMaxes, group size opened up to between the .7s and .8s. Not bad, but a good LR Pdog rig needs to easily hold sub .5. I just couldn't get there with Varget unless the bullets were basically plodding to the target.

    Regardless of what the manual says, a healthy dose of H4350 increased my velocity with the same bullet to 3700 fps, and it still shot in the .4's. The first pdog I shot with this load was at 612 yards, it was a first shot hit, but that's not really what I remember most clearly about the shot. What I remember most was, "Boy......that sure got there fast". A 600 fps increase in velocity is very noticeable, especially at extended range. And, without a doubt, it sure cuts down on the amount of holdoff necessary in the wind.

    So.......Varget or H4350? At 300 yards or less......so what. Past that, H4350 is the clear winner. Whether you need the extra velocity or not is a matter of what you're trying to do and how far out you're trying to do it.

    And here's an extra. I've posted this before, but it's been a while.

    SixGun had a Rem 700 VLS in 6mm Rem like mine. He rebarreled it with a 26" Krieger SST barrel, just like mine. His chamber was cut by the same gunsmith, using the same reamer, just like mine. His was the very next barrel after mine that this reamer was used on. IOW, if clone rifles can exist.....these two should have been them.

    I told him about my new H4350 load and how well it performed, along with the admonition to not go to top end right off the bat, since this was a pretty hot load. Well.....he ignored that last bit of advice, figuring that since we had "clone" rifles, how far off could it be? It was substantially off. I don't recall the exact fps increase he had over mine, but it was startling. Backing into the numbers via QuickLoad, we best-guessed that against a SAAMI max psi of 65,000, the same load in his rifle was kicking well into the 80thousands. With as close to a "clone" rifle as you'll ever get.

    Yeah.....while ignoring published manual data is crazy insane.........I don't take them as gospel, either.

    Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    I was told by an experienced loader and shooter when I first started hand loading that every rifle is an entity unto its self.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Thanks for the response Linefinder. I have just been trying to rationalize your real world data with their claimed data. I do appreciate real world trumps theoretical all day long. I am a relative novice and have already found out it doesn't always happen at the bench like the manual says.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 7,728 Senior Member
    I use Varget in my .222, my 22.250, the 7mm08 which are my 'go to' rifles. The best load for each calibre will shoot sub.5 or better. It may not be the fastest on the block but it means that it has simplified my loading cos I don't have to mess around with switching powders.

    It even gave .5 groups in my 204 pushing the 45gr sp but at a speed well below what the calibre is capable of.

    Simple is good in my book...........
    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 7,343 Senior Member
    Linefinder wrote: »
    And here's an extra. I've posted this before, but it's been a while.

    SixGun had a Rem 700 VLS in 6mm Rem like mine. He rebarreled it with a 26" Krieger SST barrel, just like mine. His chamber was cut by the same gunsmith, using the same reamer, just like mine. His was the very next barrel after mine that this reamer was used on. IOW, if clone rifles can exist.....these two should have been them.

    I told him about my new H4350 load and how well it performed, along with the admonition to not go to top end right off the bat, since this was a pretty hot load. Well.....he ignored that last bit of advice, figuring that since we had "clone" rifles, how far off could it be? It was substantially off. I don't recall the exact fps increase he had over mine, but it was startling. Backing into the numbers via QuickLoad, we best-guessed that against a SAAMI max psi of 65,000, the same load in his rifle was kicking well into the 80thousands. With as close to a "clone" rifle as you'll ever get.

    Yeah.....while ignoring published manual data is crazy insane.........I don't take them as gospel, either.

    Mike

    Yep. I reckon that if that was not a very heavy barreled affair on my gun, it might have turned into a pipe bomb. Lesson learned. Which bring us to another good point that you and I have discussed extensively: lot-to-lot powder burn rate variance. That's another one that can, at best, cause accuracy issues and at worst, turn a razor's edge hot load into a very dangerous one in a hurry. Always be wary out what the next pound (or eight) brings.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
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