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African Driven Hunt Protested

breamfisherbreamfisher Posts: 14,060 Senior Member
This could fall into a few different forums in my mind.

Protesters in South Africa have protested a driven hunt, where "drivers" or "beaters" are used to scare animals and cause them to move into the hunter's firing line.

I know folks in some areas of the US do driven hunts: I think Michigan is one area where they traditionally do this? Anyway, it's interesting to me, because hunters are protesting it because it's "unsporting" while to others it's just what they do. Kinda demonstrates that what's ethical can be determined both personally and culturally. I know in some areas here in FL we use dogs to drive the deer to the hunter, and it's considered ethical. In other areas that sort of thing will get you shot/skinned. Likewise if we had a deer drive here, you'd get looked at weird. Some places don't have problems with deer bait stations, others you're regarded as slightly lower than a communist if you do that.

Kinda helps illustrate what I've said for a while: ethics are a personal thing. Dependent as much on culture and location as anything else.

http://www.grindtv.com/wildlife/driven-hunt-in-south-africa-stirs-more-hunting-controversy/#Mw8zhXCcm0B4H07o.97
I'm just here for snark.

Replies

  • Big ChiefBig Chief Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Talk about beating around the bush ..................:tooth:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • bisleybisley Posts: 10,815 Senior Member
    To some, hunting is a 'romantic' enterprise in which the hunter equips himself with what he perceives to be minimalist weapons, and goes into the wild to pit his skills against the natural ability of a wild animal to survive. To others, it's a connection to the past, wherein man's survival was aided by his ability to to kill animals and eat them. There are still others, who just enjoy killing something for the power they feel, when doing it.

    This last group is the one that government originally tried to control, and the other two groups didn't complain much, because they despised this type just as much as the animal lovers. But, government being government, they soon wanted to control every aspect of hunting, and politicians discovered that they could appeal to large numbers of city dwellers by lumping all hunters into the same category. Soon, they figured out how to create statistics, by pretending that they knew how many animals of a specific kind were in existence. They sold this to the public by demonstrating some easy successes, where it was actually possible, and ignoring the failures where it was completely impossible. Their samplings became hard science in the eyes of the intellectual elites, and over time, were embraced by cat and dog lovers everywhere.

    Once this funny joke was sold to the public at large, it then became a simple matter of creating the necessary facts to outrage animal lovers of every stripe, and convince them that hunters killed more animals than starvation and disease. So, then, the framework was in place, whereby they could make hunting rules based on the percentage of animals that could be "harvested," without danger of wiping out the species. Even then, most hunters willingly obeyed the laws, because most hunters are law-abiding people, and they too wanted the various game species to survive.

    Fast-forward to now, when hunting laws are decided upon by non-hunters who were raised on the infallibility of government statistics. Some species are still declining in numbers, and some have burst out of control. There are less hunters than ever before, yet the numbers still fluctuate dramatically. Hunting, like most other rights and privileges, are governed by bureaucrats who receive statistics provided by government sponsored scientists who know the answers ahead of time, and where to collect the data to prove them.

    Honestly, I don't know what the best way would be to regulate hunting, or even whether it is necessary. I just personally believe that the current system is governed too much by politics, and that the science is too contrived.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Posts: 12,359 Senior Member
    Pretty sure they drive deer with dogs in the deep woods of Arkansas. No idea if it's legal or not, but I knew some people that did it :)
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • BigslugBigslug Posts: 9,772 Senior Member
    We are able to sit in our undies in air conditioned splendor typing away on laptops with far more capacity than was needed to fly to the moon 46 years ago because our ancestors chased wild herds of animals over cliffs using fire, dogs, and all manner of noisemaking.

    I get and approve of the whole "fair chase" mindset, but drive hunting is how humans got where we are. No, it isn't usually necessary for survival anymore, but anyone calling it "unethical" would do well to study anthropology and their own hypocrisy issues. They owe their ability to drive that Prius to people who did everything it took to survive.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Posts: 14,060 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Pretty sure they drive deer with dogs in the deep woods of Arkansas. No idea if it's legal or not, but I knew some people that did it :)
    It's common around Central Florida, legal, and my family used to raise hounds to do it with. Some still have hounds.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • ZeeZee Posts: 28,176 Senior Member
    "Fair chase".............behind a high fence.

    AB7960D6-DE44-4151-A16B-6C2787D2990C_zpsweisbhac.jpg
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • snake284snake284 Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Pretty sure they drive deer with dogs in the deep woods of Arkansas. No idea if it's legal or not, but I knew some people that did it :)

    It's legal in some counties in East Texas in the Big Thicket. If not, hardly any deer would be killed until their numbers were so high that a portion of their population was forced out of the thicket. By then many would begin to die from disease.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Posts: 2,035 Senior Member
    Deer drives are common in Wisconsin. They also allow bear hunting with dogs, and over bait stations. I've done both, and believe me it is not a "Slam Dunk" "Shooting Fish In a Barrel" kind of hunt. There are no guaranteed hunts, the exception being a hunt in an enclosed "High Fence" game farm. JMO
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Posts: 14,744 Senior Member
    We did deer drives a lot when I first got started with my dad hunting in MN, it is a lot of work if you are on the drive and your 4th grade legs are walking over logs, into swamps, and through snow. We did a lot of drives, we did not shoot a ton of deer.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • tennmiketennmike Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    The hunt could have been a cull hunt to reduce numbers of animals in the area. Animals will easily breed fast enough to overtake the ability of the land to carry the animals. The size of the place fenced in isn't given, but I'd bet it's huge since it's in South Africa. Not enough background information in the article to flesh out the information needed to make any decision.

    And all that low brush would make conventional hunting methods pretty unproductive. Drivers/beaters to flush out the game was probably the only viable choice. The hunt was sanctioned by the government, so it was legal.

    Was it ethical? There are hunting methods that meet the needs of the local area. I don't know Texas well, but have been there to quite a few areas. Hunting at game feeders in some places is the only way you'll see any game in that thick brush. And the forests in East Texas make normal hunting methods unproductive. In FL, dogs are used to run deer as well as hogs, and hunting from swamp buggies is done for both. If you've never hunted either place, you have no idea of the problems.

    In TN bears and hogs are mostly hunted with dogs to drive them to the hunter or tree the bear. Dogs bay the hogs so the hunter can run to the dogs and kill the hog. Only way you'll generally see a black bear outside a campground in the mountains is to push them with dogs. Baiting isn't legal and just sitting up a stand in a likely place is a good way to read 'War and Peace' undisturbed. Bears and hogs like laurel thickets in the TN mountains, and if you have never tried to crawl through one then you have no idea of the problems hunting hogs and bears in the mountains of TN in the wildlife management areas.

    Hunting methods vary from state to state, and areas within a state, due to the terrain and cover in the area. Dismissing methods as unethical is close minded when the person hasn't actually seen first hand the reasons for the methods.

    And like Big Slug said, our ancestors had no problem using fire and the terrain to drive large groups of animals to their death. Judging our small high fenced areas to the huge fenced areas in South Africa is a mental trap.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Posts: 12,359 Senior Member
    Deer drives are common in Wisconsin. They also allow bear hunting with dogs, and over bait stations. I've done both, and believe me it is not a "Slam Dunk" "Shooting Fish In a Barrel" kind of hunt. There are no guaranteed hunts, the exception being a hunt in an enclosed "High Fence" game farm. JMO

    I hear that from a lot of people that have zero experience with high fence game ranches. I have been blessed with being able to participate on a cull hunt on one of the biggest game ranches in Texas. Even in that situation, it was not a "given" that I wouuld find one of the cull does. One of my best fiends worked on that ranch as a guide, and had lots of stories of unsucessful hunts. A high fenced 200 acre lot can hide a LOTof deer, and the deer are really good at hiding.

    The high fence is more about keeping the good genes in, and the bad genes out than making it easy for some rich slob to waddle out and shoot a monster deer.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • JermanatorJermanator Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    In Michigan, yes, we do deer drives. To be even remotely effective, you need a dozen or more people in your hunting party. From my experience, is seems to be a waste of time.

    Bear? I finally got to experience that. When I was up there, it was bait only for the first five days. After that, you can use dogs. When I went to the bear hunting clinic put on by the Michigan DNR, those were the only two options even remotely considered-- bait and dogs. The clinic was presented by state biologists and conservation officers. Stalking and waiting along a trail hoping one would show up were not even considered, and after experiencing a Michigan bear hunt first hand, would be a fool's errand.

    If anyone wants to say that hunting over bait or with dogs is unethical, they should strongly reconsider. And if anyone wants to say I didn't "hunt" or work for my bear can go piss up a rope. I will go into more detail on bait and dog hunting later (with photos). I am a bit too involved in butchering my bear at the moment to write it all up.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • ZeeZee Posts: 28,176 Senior Member
    I killed my first deer on a "drive". Myself and a couple family members spread out with shotguns on one side of a small wood lot (handful of acres) while a couple family members walked through from the other side of the lot.

    4 does broke cover near me and I shot one with buckshot. My first deer.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Posts: 28,176 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    I hear that from a lot of people that have zero experience with high fence game ranches. I have been blessed with being able to participate on a cull hunt on one of the biggest game ranches in Texas. Even in that situation, it was not a "given" that I wouuld find one of the cull does. One of my best fiends worked on that ranch as a guide, and had lots of stories of unsucessful hunts. A high fenced 200 acre lot can hide a LOTof deer, and the deer are really good at hiding.

    The high fence is more about keeping the good genes in, and the bad genes out than making it easy for some rich slob to waddle out and shoot a monster deer.

    I agree that high fence hunting ain't easy........depending on the size of the place. The places I cull at are HUGE!!!! But, they are also broken up into "sections", which are large in their own right. Larger than any plot of private land I ever grew up hunting on.

    Then..........there are "Game Ranches". That are stocked and shot on a revolving basis. Density so high......there is no underbrush. Walk around until you see the animal you want........shoot.........pat yourself on the back......take pics.........and post your "success" on a handgun hunting forum because you are just......that......good.

    No thanks. That ain't for me. Others can have at it.

    :tooth:
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Posts: 2,035 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I agree that high fence hunting ain't easy........depending on the size of the place. The places I cull at are HUGE!!!! But, they are also broken up into "sections", which are large in their own right. Larger than any plot of private land I ever grew up hunting on.

    Then..........there are "Game Ranches". That are stocked and shot on a revolving basis. Density so high......there is no underbrush. Walk around until you see the animal you want........shoot.........pat yourself on the back......take pics.........and post your "success" on a handgun hunting forum because you are just......that......good.

    No thanks. That ain't for me. Others can have at it.

    :tooth:

    The last type you mentioned Zee, were the kind I was referring to. High fences and minimal acreage. There is an Elk farm/ranch in Idaho along the border with Wyoming that always has escapees. A tree falls on the fence...etc. No matter how well you fence animals in, they'll always be ones that escape. In the case of the Elk, they polluted the wild gene pool. Game farms are just plain wrong. Easy hunt or hard, they're the reason for all the CWD all around the country.
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Posts: 8,227 Senior Member
    In the mid 70s, I hunted a few years in the Angelina National Forest of east Texas (Houston county). The country was a mix of conifers, hardwoods and thick underbrush. As a friend of mine said, some of that country was so thick it would take Davy Crockett three days to sneak up on Helen Keller.

    One of those times I was still hunting when a dog ran by with its nose to the ground. About a minute later, here comes a guy carrying a shotgun trying his best to keep up. Needless to say, we didn't stop and chat. Also, in that county, at that time, hunting with dogs was illegal. I opted not to mention that to him. After all, he was carrying a shotgun.

    I hunted that area for several years, and never saw a single deer, even though sign was plentiful. I do remember walking down an abandoned logging road once when a big, black cow ran out of a small copse of brush. It was about 20 yards away when it ran, and I doubt I would have seen it if it had not moved. I remember thinking to myself that if I couldn't even see a cow hidden in the brush, how in the heck did I expect to see a deer.

    I've done most of my hunting in fairly open country, and seeing an animal further away than I like to shoot is not uncommon. If I have learned anything in my years, it's that you need to adapt your hunting method to the terrain. That's about as ethical as I know to be.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Posts: 8,155 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I agree that high fence hunting ain't easy........depending on the size of the place. The places I cull at are HUGE!!!! But, they are also broken up into "sections", which are large in their own right. Larger than any plot of private land I ever grew up hunting on.

    Then..........there are "Game Ranches". That are stocked and shot on a revolving basis. Density so high......there is no underbrush. Walk around until you see the animal you want........shoot.........pat yourself on the back......take pics.........and post your "success" on a handgun hunting forum because you are just......that......good.

    No thanks. That ain't for me. Others can have at it.

    :tooth:
    That's precisely what I learned when I went to South Africa. Pretty much everything down there is high fenced because poaching is such a problem. It's to the point that high-fenced ranches of sufficient size get a placard from the South African government certifying them as national preserves. The primary place I hunted was HUGE - 55 square *miles*...all behind a high fence. There was no guarantee of anything and, believe me, these animals were completely wild, unlike the virtually tame deer walking around the stocking tanks you see in some places stateside. You never knew what would pop up on a given day and it took several days of looking to find some of the critters we were after.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • bellcatbellcat Posts: 2,040 Senior Member
    I'm with ya Luis.....the preserve we hunted was huge! We never once saw animals react to fences. And poaching is a huge problem. Our PH told us the fences were not keep animals in, but to keep government out!
    "Kindness is the language the deaf can hear and the blind can see." Mark Twain
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