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Russia starts air strikes in Syria

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  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,986 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Pull out. There is no point in wasting our time, money, and the lives of our military on the chickenshit interventions we have been doing. Besides, we have no real reason to be in that hellhole in the first place. Let a real man (Putin) deal with it. Syria is legitimately within their sphere of influence-- they mean nothing to US interests. Obama already screwed the pooch by pulling out of Iraq which allowed ISIS to fill that vacuum there. What a ed up mess!

    Agree.

    Regarding interests in arms sales, someone has to fill the void in that region. Western nations arms sales are usually tied to a lot of strings and conditions most in the region hardly comply, and internal political conflicts in those same countries play against an open sale of at least something more than small arms or light equipment.
    So there step up China, Russia, etc. who will sell without lots of question asked. At least that will give Western nations some "moral background" to supply other regional "rouge" States (Mainly Israel, another "human right violator" in U.N. forums) with either direct military aid, tech & equipment, or at least logistical and intelligence support when the moment calls.

    About the pre-WWII comparisons, I'll have to say that Israel is FAR from being Poland in both military readiness, combat capability and armament; only "advantage" of potential enemies is their number and that has proved to be not enough at least twice. Poland was a little more than a 3rld. world country eventually crushed by 2 of the biggest military & economic powers at the time, and logistics & transport didn't allowed to the potential allies to start moving before the country was already lost.

    And regarding Mr. Chamberlain....while playing "soft" and "innocent" with Germans....wasn't he the same who pushed for Britain's re-armament program in the late '30s while dealing with the Nazis? If so, apparently he wasn't as naive as "popular" history portrays him and such actions at least saved England from an Invasion. Remember than back then post-depression funds were scarce everywhere, and taking money from traditional armament spending (Ships, tanks, artillery,etc.) and routing it to then untested high-risk and innovative gizmos such as radar and new plane designs was very, very unpopular, specially with politicians and high-level military hierarchy....will have to read more about this matter.

    Finally, remember that both Russia and China are in practice totalitarian states with a considerable Muslim population, and they won't allow them to even consider some kind of religion-inspired rebellion of any kind, so this is virtually a show of force aimed to them (Along with reinforcement of commercial interests in the region) more than a altruistic reaction to bring peace for the innocent civilians trapped in that mess....or are you seeing lots of Syrian refugees trying to reach Russian or Chinese soil, and those countries welcoming them with open arms?
  • GunnerK19GunnerK19 Senior Member Posts: 1,095 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    Obama has more flexibility after his election.

    Yup, he can bend over and grab his ankles much easier now...
    I'm a Conservative. How conservative? Only Alex P. Keaton has me beat.

    Taurus 605 .357, Ruger .45 Vaquero, Colt frontier commemorative .22 SA, Pietta 1860 .44 snubnose
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Obama could not scare a sick kitten at this point.
    I think it is worse than that. I think half the stuff Putin pulls is to deliberately piss Obama off. On a personal level, Putin hates Obama's guts!
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    Antonio wrote: »
    About the pre-WWII comparisons, I'll have to say that Israel is FAR from being Poland in both military readiness, combat capability and armament; only "advantage" of potential enemies is their number and that has proved to be not enough at least twice. Poland was a little more than a 3rld. world country eventually crushed by 2 of the biggest military & economic powers at the time, and logistics & transport at the time didn't allowed to the potential allies at the time to start moving before the country was already lost.

    And Putin is not as foolish as the heads of state who have attacked Israel in the past. With him calling the shots, unlimited arms, sophisticated surface-to-air missiles, and Russian tactical and strategic advisors, Israel is in deep trouble. That's not to even mention coordination with the Palestinians, Hezbollah, and whatever else Iran has lined up. Jordan may stay neutral, but Saudi Arabia will line up with whoever they think is going to win. Egypt went with the Soviets, under Nassar, so who knows how they will align.

    As for Chamberlain, he was not as weak as history portrayed him, but he was judged a fool by his enemies, and that emboldened them to take the steps they took. An over-blown show of force by Britain and France, at a point in time when Hitler was not yet strong enough to defeat them militarily would likely have slowed or stopped them.

    I rate our highest echelons of government to be at least as stupid as the heads of state who let Hitler get a foothold and gain a momentum that was only stopped by the English Channel on one front and the Russian winter on the other.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    Obama could not scare a sick kitten at this point.

    JFK didn't frighten Kruschev, either, but General Curtis LeMay, et al did, and he had to wonder if JFK could control the military that Ike built.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    IRAN BOOTS JOIN RUSSIA'S JETS
    Iranian troops prepare to aid Russia with Syrian ground assault, officials say

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/10/01/cia-backed-rebels-civilians-reportedly-targeted-by-russian-airstrikes-in-syria/?intcmp=hpbt1
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    IRAN BOOTS JOIN RUSSIA'S JETS
    Iranian troops prepare to aid Russia with Syrian ground assault, officials say

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/10/01/cia-backed-rebels-civilians-reportedly-targeted-by-russian-airstrikes-in-syria/?intcmp=hpbt1

    That means the wild card has been played. Iranians are a different sect of Islam than the gulf states and Saudi Arabia. Their presence will cause lots of tension in those countries.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
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  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    The Iranians are Shia while ISIS is an extreme form of Sunni. Saudi Arabia is Sunni, Iraq is a mix of the two. While both sects are Muslim, they have huge differences with each other, making the Catholic/Protestant conflicts of old look like a minor disagreement.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    One thing that these newly formed alliances have in common is their dislike of Israel. Right now I would think that Israel is feeling pretty threatened.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Netanyahu gave a good speech at the UN today. Obammy has tried to screw Israel every chance he gets. The are our best friends/allies in that region.

    Chilling: Netanyahu Glares at UN Delegates for 45 Seconds for Their 'Deafening Silence' on Iran Deal

    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2015/10/01/netanyahu-un-speech-n2059774
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    The Iranians are Shia while ISIS is an extreme form of Sunni. Saudi Arabia is Sunni, Iraq is a mix of the two. While both sects are Muslim, they have huge differences with each other, making the Catholic/Protestant conflicts of old look like a minor disagreement.

    That is correct, with the exception of Iraq. While it is a Mix, The Sunni's are the minority by a large margin.

    To answer your other question on the previous page. I see nothing good with allowing Russia into the middle east. Nothing. Our presence here does not get a discount per barrel on oil, but it keeps folks from sideways. Imagine Russia taking Syria, okay not to bad. They get their own supply. What do they do with it? Anything they want. to include moving through Europe. Or, Russia takes Syria and Iraq. Do you think he is not going to take the refineries in Kuwait too? Now we have Russia dictating the price of Sweet Crude.
    Everyone seems predicated on the notion that no one will make any real power plays in the world of today. The global economy being so connected, proliferation of Nuclear material, and it being a better age. That is exactly why someone will be bold enough to move. They know they will be able to move and do what they wish as the EU, NATO, and everyone else is to scared to ruin the balance or risk a nuclear war. Russia has nothing to lose at this point, and everything to gain. I hate to use the examples of times past, but Putin has a Hitler military mentality and Russia is at the same point it was prior to WWII. He is prepared to push boundaries and make his nation stronger.
    At this point we stand more to win by making a coalition with the Russians and supporting Assad for the time being.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Nice read.

    "How Putin blindsided the US over Syria."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34405983

    "Isn't there something totally jaw-dropping, gob-smacking, eyebrow-arching, ear twitchingly extraordinary - and not to mention, casual - about the way the Americans learnt about Russian plans?

    It began with a phone call from a Russian diplomat to his counterpart in Baghdad to say "we've got something interesting to tell you".

    Then a three-star Russian general leaves the Russian embassy compound and knocks on the door of the American one, and asks to see the US military attache.

    He tells the American military man that bombing starts in an hour, so you'd better get out of Syrian airspace now and move any assets you have off the ground. And 60 minutes later, the bombing started."



    The Great Game, as Kipling would have it.

    It's all a larf, ain't it.
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,281 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    JFK didn't frighten Kruschev, either, but General Curtis LeMay, et al did, and he had to wonder if JFK could control the military that Ike built.

    Yep
  • mohicanmohican Member Posts: 381 Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Hitler & Putin, Chamberlain & Obama. Except that's an insult to Chamberlain.

    Its 1938 all over again!

    Putin is probably a brutal thug, but Hitler? Seriously?

    He's not Stalin, Lenin, Kruchev either. He's had the power to re-assemble the Soviet and he's declined - the most "outrageous" thing was what he's done in the Ukraine, but in my mind that is smart on his part for several reasons.

    Then look at Assad. I can't begin to tell what the truth about him is. I have a good enough memory that in 2013 "reliable" sources stated that the poison gas attacks were as likely to have come from rebel groups on other rebel groups as from Assad. I hate to look at things as the lesser of evils but if you compare Assad to various "rebels" then since I'm not living there, Assad is the lesser of the evils.

    If I view this from the prism of Christians > Muslims then Assasd/Putin is better than Obama/The Good Al-Quaida Rebels . After 9/11, and a decade of battling Muslim Groups such as Al-Quaida in Iraq, how can American politicians talk about "Good", or "moderate" groups that are Al Quaida?
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