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Deer hunting .223

pjames777pjames777 Posts: 1,421 Senior Member
Anyone have experience hunting with .223 Remington? Neighbor wants to take his 12yr old and was thinking of using his Remington .223. Recommendations on bullet weight???

Thanks.
Patrick
«13

Replies

  • ZeeZee Posts: 28,369 Senior Member
    60gr and above.

    I've killed them with 50/55/62/64/77gr bullets. The heavier the bullet (of proper design) the more leeway allotted for adequate penetration.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JermanatorJermanator Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Those Fusions are essentially (if not actually) Gold Dots. I have seen how they perform and I would trust them on deer with a .223. But as always, shot placement is the key.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • LerchessLerchess Posts: 550 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Those Fusions are essentially (if not actually) Gold Dots. I have seen how they perform and I would trust them on deer with a .223. But as always, shot placement is the key.

    Nephew got a deer last year with Fusions. They work well.
  • Savage_99Savage_99 Posts: 47 Member
    The little 223 was designed to wound the enemy as that takes up more effort by them.

    It's not enough for big game. It's not legal in many places for that reason.
  • orchidmanorchidman Posts: 8,435 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Well, crap. No one told the deer that die by the .223.
    Is it ideal? Probably not. Will it it work with the correct bullet and proper shot placement? (Like ALL weapons should be used)
    Yes.

    Having shot many animals from deer sized up to wild steers with my 222 using 50gr psp's I feel reasonably qualified to comment on similar sized projectiles from a 223.

    They will, with proper shot placement drop deer on the spot. Neck or head shots are dead deer standing, shoulder shots will still do the job but on midsized animals and above, may not give you a pass through and subsequently there will be no blood trail to follow. Lung and heart shots are similar if taken behind the shoulder on a quartering angle.

    Just my experience...........
    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • snake284snake284 Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    I have had good results with the Speer 70 grain semi Spitzer. It being semi Spitzer will stabilize in loser twist rate barrels than full Spitzers. In fact they even stabilize in my Remington 700 .22-250 with a 1:14 twist. My old Remington 788 .223 had a 1:12 twist rate and it shot sub MOA all day with these bullets. And, being 70 grains they penetrate very well. But as has been said here, with any rifle shot placement is key, and more especially with a cartridge like a .223.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • bisleybisley Posts: 10,815 Senior Member
    My 7 year old grandson (then) shot two small deer with 55 grain Barnes Triple Shock factory loads. One was a good heart-lung shot at 50 yards, that ran 30 yards and dropped dead. The other was a single lung shot that did a lot of damage, and the deer was found about 70 yards away. I load 70 grain Barnes TSX for my 20" heavy barrel AR, but have not fired it at an animal, but it groups well.
  • Gene LGene L Posts: 12,815 Senior Member
    Savage_99 wrote: »
    The little 223 was designed to wound the enemy as that takes up more effort by them.

    It's not enough for big game. It's not legal in many places for that reason.

    I don't know how that first sentence came from. It was designed to allow troops to carry a lot more ammo in a lighter-weight weapon. Never in history that I know of has any government designed a firearm specifically to wound people.

    It's OK for deer if you use the proper bullets for it.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    If the Rem is a 1:12", the 0.800" Nosler 64gr Bonded SHOULD stabilize, according to Berger's stability calculator.

    My slowest twist 223 is still a 1:9, so I don't know this from first hand experience

    I have only shot Federal Fusion through one rifle with a 1:12 barrel.

    photo6_zps9c983056.jpg

    That is a .22 short case next to the group. Fired from my H&R Handi Rifle.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Posts: 8,227 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I don't know how that first sentence came from. It was designed to allow troops to carry a lot more ammo in a lighter-weight weapon. Never in history that I know of has any government designed a firearm specifically to wound people.

    I've heard both reasons given for the army switching from the .308 to the .223. The idea was that it took two enemy combatants out if one was injured. The injured guy and someone to take care of or carry him. It makes sense to me, assuming the enemy cares about fallen comrades.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Posts: 18,356 Senior Member
    Savage_99 wrote: »
    It's not enough for big game. It's not legal in many places for that reason.

    If you had been around here a bit longer, you would have seen that we, as a group, have pretty much debunked the whole "It's not enough for big game" argument. Many of those states in which the .223 has been illegal for deer hunting are changing their tunes due to advances in bullet design and changing the regulations to read "Any centerfire rifle"...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • ZeeZee Posts: 28,369 Senior Member
    Savage_99 wrote: »
    The little 223 was designed to wound the enemy as that takes up more effort by them.

    It's not enough for big game. It's not legal in many places for that reason.

    37747511_zps2srzyhx0.jpg
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Posts: 6,583 Senior Member
    Savage_99 wrote: »
    The little 223 was designed to wound the enemy as that takes up more effort by them.

    It's not enough for big game. It's not legal in many places for that reason.

    Huh?

    It was designed to bolster ammo capacity and primarily to accommodate the castrated AR-10 when it was downsized to the AR-15.

    It's wound potential was desired in practice, but not of original design.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Posts: 14,103 Senior Member
    Wouldn't anything that shoots FMJ ammo be more on the "wounding" end of the spectrum than the "killing" end? Isn't that part of the reason that FMJ is banned for MOST hunting situations? Saying a military round was "designed for wounding over killing" is kind of disingenuous when one considers the bullet profiles they're limited to.
    Meh.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Posts: 6,583 Senior Member
    Wouldn't anything that shoots FMJ ammo be more on the "wounding" end of the spectrum than the "killing" end? Isn't that part of the reason that FMJ is banned for MOST hunting situations? Saying a military round was "designed for wounding over killing" is kind of disingenuous when one considers the bullet profiles they're limited to.

    Shot placement notwithstanding, probably.

    As far as mil-theory goes, I imagine wounded is acceptable and dead is preferable. A wounded soldier occupies other soldier's attentions.

    FMJ bullets were never hunting bullets anyways.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Posts: 8,227 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    If you had been around here a bit longer, you would have seen that we, as a group, have pretty much debunked the whole "It's not enough for big game" argument. Many of those states in which the .223 has been illegal for deer hunting are changing their tunes due to advances in bullet design and changing the regulations to read "Any centerfire rifle"...

    I'll bet that states with game larger than deer will not allow 22 caliber centerfire rifles, or at least restrict them to certain game animals. I wouldn't have a problem hunting Texas whitetails with a .222 or .223, but would want to hunt country where close shots are the norm. I would not want to use it on a hunt of a life time for big northern whitetails or mule deer, and anything larger.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Posts: 14,103 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Shot placement notwithstanding, probably.Well, yeah...

    As far as mil-theory goes, I imagine wounded is acceptable and dead is preferable. A wounded soldier occupies other soldier's attentions.Probably, but my point was that rounds use, per the Geneva accords, aren't really designed to be hunting rounds or even that great at producing trauma. They do, but that's incidental to the design. The 5.56 was designed as a military round, first, then adopted to hunting. Kinda like the '06 and the .308.

    FMJ bullets were never hunting bullets anyways.Well, yeah.
    .
    Meh.
  • JermanatorJermanator Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    I'll bet that states with game larger than deer will not allow 22 caliber centerfire rifles, or at least restrict them to certain game animals.
    In Michigan, it is ANY centerfire cartridge .22 and up for deer, and .243+ for elk and bear.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Posts: 14,103 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    In Michigan, it is ANY centerfire cartridge .22 and up for deer, and .243+ for elk and bear.
    I can see it being adequate for elk, but bear? How big do your bear get?
    Meh.
  • JermanatorJermanator Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    How big do your bear get?
    300+ isn't uncommom but average is 150 pounds.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Posts: 6,583 Senior Member
    Shot placement notwithstanding, probably.Well, yeah...

    As far as mil-theory goes, I imagine wounded is acceptable and dead is preferable. A wounded soldier occupies other soldier's attentions.Probably, but my point was that rounds use, per the Geneva accords, aren't really designed to be hunting rounds or even that great at producing trauma. They do, but that's incidental to the design. The 5.56 was designed as a military round, first, then adopted to hunting. Kinda like the '06 and the .308.

    FMJ bullets were never hunting bullets anyways.Well, yeah.

    I agree.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • snake284snake284 Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    I'll bet that states with game larger than deer will not allow 22 caliber centerfire rifles, or at least restrict them to certain game animals. I wouldn't have a problem hunting Texas whitetails with a .222 or .223, but would want to hunt country where close shots are the norm. I would not want to use it on a hunt of a life time for big northern whitetails or mule deer, and anything larger.

    Me neither. And I will say one more thing. With such a small bullet like a .22 Centerfire, I reason it like a .410 Shotgun. It's more for an experienced shooter. To kill consistently it requires more precise shot placement. In my opinion it's not the best for a first time hunter. I like something on the order of a .30-30 for a beginner. It has soft recoil but still packs plenty of punch. And even a 150 grain flat nose it will kill DRT within reasonable ranges.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Gene LGene L Posts: 12,815 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    I've heard both reasons given for the army switching from the .308 to the .223. The idea was that it took two enemy combatants out if one was injured. The injured guy and someone to take care of or carry him. It makes sense to me, assuming the enemy cares about fallen comrades.

    When the .223 was adopted, the enemy didn't escort their wounded off, we did. I takes more than two soldiers to carry off and bury a dead guy. Everyone followed the US's lead and went down to .223 caliber bullets. The .308 was a mistake; a fine round but heavy and I think retrograde of the .30-06 Garand. Shows you how conservative (I don't mean politically) the military is...or was. We still carried M 60 machine guns, maybe the worst MG since the Chauchat.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • FreezerFreezer Posts: 2,751 Senior Member
    I would not encourage anyone to give a kid a .223 as their first deer rifle. Shot placement is too critical. A kid without a lot of practice time and buck fever is not a good receipt for success. Additionally some folks want to hand a small framed kid a rifle that's too big (their rifle) and designed for an adult. With a bad stock fit the kid will not shoot it well so how under a stress condition can they place a critical shot well. This whole subject is a bad idea. .223 when used for large game is an experts cartridge.

    Encourage your friend to get the kid a gun that fits in a more suitable cartridge. .243 (and I don't care for that choice) would be the minimum starting point with 257 Roberts, 260 Rem. 7-08 etc being far better rounds.

    We should not be teaching kids to kill. We should be teaching them to be ethical hunters with the skills and tools to take game efficiently and humanely.

    JMHO
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • JermanatorJermanator Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    When the .223 was adopted, the enemy didn't escort their wounded off, we did. I takes more than two soldiers to carry off and bury a dead guy. Everyone followed the US's lead and went down to .223 caliber bullets. The .308 was a mistake; a fine round but heavy and I think retrograde of the .30-06 Garand. Shows you how conservative (I don't mean politically) the military is...or was. We still carried M 60 machine guns, maybe the worst MG since the Chauchat.
    Something to consider-- I am not sure the statistics in Nam' but in Afghanistan and Iraq, they are saying that 250,000 rounds were fired for every insurgent killed. If that is true (and I have heard similar about Nam') then the real name of the game is quantity of bullets vs. the ballistics of the individual round. For cover fire, the enemy is going to keep their heads down regardless if the bullets wizzing by them are .223, .308, or .510. Logistically, it is much easier to move the smaller .223 rounds to where they are needed.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Posts: 10,815 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Something to consider-- I am not sure the statistics in Nam' but in Afghanistan and Iraq, they are saying that 250,000 rounds were fired for every insurgent killed. If that is true (and I have heard similar about Nam') then the real name of the game is quantity of bullets vs. the ballistics of the individual round. For cover fire, the enemy is going to keep their heads down regardless if the bullets wizzing by them are .223, .308, or .510. Logistically, it is much easier to move the smaller .223 rounds to where they are needed.

    Also, the military's strategic thinking has always been that wars are won with massive amounts of exploding projectiles (artillery, aerial bombs). Artillery, mortars and machine guns kill the most enemy combatants in a conventional battle, with the small arms being considered mostly for self-defense, during what many generals have portrayed as 'mopping up' operations. Unfortunately, winning is not always the task given to the generals by the politicians, and ground troops often find themselves in unsupported, or poorly supported battles.

    Granted that, for a grunt, the war is about whatever is in front of him, but he has to use the weapons that the generals give him, and they are often thinking more about logistics and politics than the individual contests being fought by each soldier. The AR-15 looked great, on paper, to Robert S. McNamara (SecDef for JFK and LBJ), and he 'improved' their cost efficiency even more by eliminating the chrome lined barrel and the cleaning kits, in the early models. Not surprising, since he was previously a bean counter for Ford Motor Company. The AR-15 evolved into a good battle weapon, best suited to close range engagements, but it has always had its detractors, who found themselves in need of heavier duty battle rifles.
  • snake284snake284 Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Freezer wrote: »
    I would not encourage anyone to give a kid a .223 as their first deer rifle. Shot placement is too critical. A kid without a lot of practice time and buck fever is not a good receipt for success. Additionally some folks want to hand a small framed kid a rifle that's too big (their rifle) and designed for an adult. With a bad stock fit the kid will not shoot it well so how under a stress condition can they place a critical shot well. This whole subject is a bad idea. .223 when used for large game is an experts cartridge.

    Encourage your friend to get the kid a gun that fits in a more suitable cartridge. .243 (and I don't care for that choice) would be the minimum starting point with 257 Roberts, 260 Rem. 7-08 etc being far better rounds.

    We should not be teaching kids to kill. We should be teaching them to be ethical hunters with the skills and tools to take game efficiently and humanely.

    JMHO

    Freezer, you hit it on the head bro. I agree 150%. There's a lot of discussion of ethics and what are ethics on this forum. Some definitions I feel personally miss the boat completely. To me if you have the right raising and teachings there is no teaching of ethics, it's already in your system. People know pretty well before you pull a trigger if what you're doing is right. There is no one size fits all ethical question and answer. It's something you just know. If it feels right do it. If not get your finger out of that trigger guard.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Freezer wrote: »
    I would not encourage anyone to give a kid a .223 as their first deer rifle. Shot placement is too critical. A kid without a lot of practice time and buck fever is not a good receipt for success. Additionally some folks want to hand a small framed kid a rifle that's too big (their rifle) and designed for an adult. With a bad stock fit the kid will not shoot it well so how under a stress condition can they place a critical shot well. This whole subject is a bad idea. .223 when used for large game is an experts cartridge.

    Encourage your friend to get the kid a gun that fits in a more suitable cartridge. .243 (and I don't care for that choice) would be the minimum starting point with 257 Roberts, 260 Rem. 7-08 etc being far better rounds.

    We should not be teaching kids to kill. We should be teaching them to be ethical hunters with the skills and tools to take game efficiently and humanely.

    JMHO
    My childs first deer rifle will more than likely be a .223. There is not one thing unethical about that. And why in the world would you take a child out hunting without "a lot of practice"? That would be the unethical thing. Without "a lot of practice" how in the world are 257, 260, or the 7-08 any better? Bigger boom more likely to cause flinching, and still need " a lot of practice" to place the shot. Shot placement, and choice, is just as critical with these other cartridges.
  • FreezerFreezer Posts: 2,751 Senior Member
    Shot placement is too critical for a kid with buck fever.

    Better penetration, pass through shot, better blood trail, better bullet performance and tissue damage ..........

    Use enough gun for the job.

    Get a gun that fits the person and recoil won't be an issue.

    If a .223 can take anything on earth why do we have so many choices? There are better cartridges for deer! Why handicap a beginner with a .223?

    Teach them to shoot a bb gun, then a .22 then fit a rifle to them and let them learn how to handle mild recoil. (243.257,6.5x55......)

    Teach them right and recoil isn't a factor to be concerned with.

    Maybe you an expert. Maybe you have trained your child correctly. If that is the case you don't need to ask this question. Its my HO, I don't believe a .223 is anything but an experts cartridge for deer.

    If you do this the question won't be "can I use".......... if you ask "can I use this" your unsure and questioning the minimum. The answer is NO!
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
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