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knitepoetknitepoet Senior MemberPosts: 21,095 Senior Member
Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


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Replies

  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    But our government officials say not to worry....

    Yep, Jug Ears will say the JV does not know how to use them ...
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    Probably want to get nerve agents. Which aren't too hard to make if they capture an insecticide plant or two. Because insecticides and nerve agents aren't that far apart. As far as chemical weapons go, some aren't that hard to make, relatively speaking, and can be gotten easily. The chlorine gas used in a chemical attack is the same as the chlorine used in municipal water supplies...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Even if no one died, a "chemical weapon" attack would send our country into a frenzy.


    And that is the purpose of the exercise.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    Chlorine was just used as an example of a "chemical weapon" that was relatively easy to get. There are others, I'm sure. Plus I've got a feeling that it can be released in other situations where its properties and limitations can be used more advantageously.

    Plus as cpj and Buford mentioned, you don't necessarily have to kill many for the weapon to be effective.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Just having to operate in an NBC environment severely hampers your activities. MOPP 4 is everything......mask-hood/boots/gloves/suit after a while you feel like you are walking on yer kneecaps.

    Some nasty stuff out there.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I've been in some real deals where the NBC alarms went off in Kuwait in the Camps and on Doha and it is hard enough for trained soldiers and DOD civilians to get suited up and and try to remain calm.............general population here in the USA..........massive panic/hysteria.

    Loudspeakers/alams going off one day on Camp Doha in Kuwait City sayin "This is not a test, repeat, this is not a test, go to MOPP 4 immediately and wait for further instructions..........."

    Patriot Missiles bustin loose out the back gate from a battery set up there as I was turning into the checkpoint gate to get in. I saw and heard one streak out through my windshield and was thinking the :fan: :fan: :yikes: :yikes:

    Same day (I believe) a missile hit the Shraq Mall pier in KC and we shot down a British Harrier jet returning from Iraq without his Friend/Foe transponder on.............

    I would say the good ole days.......something I'll never forget for sure.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »

    And not only that, ISIS will take any and all weapons they can get, steal, fabricate, plunder,buy or whatever they can get their hands on.
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    Speaking personally, as one of the hefty-bag clad idiots that has to walk into the hot-zone on chemical spills, I am worried that they start working on getting their hands on Chlorine. That and any or all of the readily available chemicals running up and down the interstate on any given day. Not to be taken lightly. Just Sayin'!
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    Yeah, that's the thing I don't think the general populace realizes: there's a lot of chemicals out there that are really, really common and dangerous.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Yeah, that's the thing I don't think the general populace realizes: there's a lot of chemicals out there that are really, really common and dangerous.

    Yep, from simple Clorox and ammonia which is bag enough to a couple of things anyone can buy at a pool that will generate serious clouds.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,095 Senior Member
    Not too mention the fact that the article claims they've already acquired/used mustard gas. It's not one of the more lethal chem weapons, but it's still NASTY with the burns on tissue (skin, lungs, eyes)
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,095 Senior Member
    Considering the stuff traveling up and down the roads already, in all the Haz-mat training I've had over the years, I've always been told the most dangerous wreck scene is one with a Walmart truck involved.

    Not enough of any particular chemical to require placards (usually), but then you possibly have all those "Non-reportable quantities" of stuff getting mixed together.

    Think of all the different chemicals you can buy at walmart, now consider what you can get mixing them together :yikes:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Considering the stuff traveling up and down the roads already, in all the Haz-mat training I've had over the years, I've always been told the most dangerous wreck scene is one with a Walmart truck involved.

    Not enough of any particular chemical to require placards (usually), but then you possibly have all those "Non-reportable quantities" of stuff getting mixed together.

    Think of all the different chemicals you can buy at walmart, now consider what you can get mixing them together :yikes:

    Exactly!
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,095 Senior Member
    Exactly!
    See, I WAS paying attention between my naps :tooth:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,925 Senior Member
    I once picked up a guy who was running from the police and tried to escape by running through a cornfield that had been freshly sprayed with insecticide....he died from organo-phosphate poisoning on the way to the hospital...not a nice way to go.....nerve gas is simply insecticide for people...lots worse things out there at the local Farm & Fleet to worry about than chlorine....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,095 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    I once picked up a guy who was running from the police and tried to escape by running through a cornfield that had been freshly sprayed with insecticide....he died from organo-phosphate poisoning on the way to the hospital...not a nice way to go.....nerve gas is simply insecticide for people...lots worse things out there at the local Farm & Fleet to worry about than chlorine....
    I ran on a guy that drank some ortho concentrate.

    I emptied 4 drug boxes of all their atropine, and he still died.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    We got dispatched on a guy who decided that two whole house bug foggers in the shower would work great to kill his head lice. Got cancelled by the ambo crew before we got on scene so I can't provide any after action on the efficacy of his technique.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,262 Senior Member
    Ok. . .so they're looking for the latest in 1915 technology. . .

    Savages though they may be, I will give them credit: they understand the game better than the West has for quite a while. Until comparatively recently, it was pretty well understood that the object of war was to kill the enemy, nobody worried too much about how messy it was, and disorganizing the opposing ranks through fear was a normal part of the program.

    WWI was fought by both sides to be WON, and nobody sweat the political incorrectness of gas, flamethrowers, buckshot, bolos, machetes, or the 1918 trench knife that had two points, two edges, and brass knuckles.

    We've since bound ourselves up with all these silly rules in an attempt to convince ourselves that it's somehow possible to POLITELY murder someone. ISIS hasn't. There's coffee here that we need to wake up and smell.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,153 Senior Member
    I'm just not out there looking for more reasons to be scared. My general rule is if there's something crazy muslim fanatics want me to do, I try my best to do the opposite. Eventually something is going to get me. Chances are FAR FAR greater than not that what gets me is NOT terrorists, even though I live near one of their biggest targets.

    Yeah, but we still wear seat belts, have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers, carry personal weapons, and try to keep terrorists from getting chemical weapons and entering our country.

    Just because we are going to die some day, does not mean we should try to juggle chainsaws.


    Now- here is how they hurt us with chemical weapons: On Thanksgiving day, they announce they are going to hit us on black friday. Then they hit a group at lining up at a walmart or mall at 4:AM in the eastern timezone with some sort of chemical weapon. No one dies (except for a couple people trampled in the panic), everyone gets a bad cough, but widespread panic causes everyone to stay home during the christmas season. Retailers fail, stocks crash, layoffs, etc...

    But no one dies from the chemicals, so we are cool, right?
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Yeah, but we still wear seat belts, have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers, carry personal weapons, and try to keep terrorists from getting chemical weapons and entering our country.

    Just because we are going to die some day, does not mean we should try to juggle chainsaws.


    Now- here is how they hurt us with chemical weapons: On Thanksgiving day, they announce they are going to hit us on black friday. Then they hit a group at lining up at a walmart or mall at 4:AM in the eastern timezone with some sort of chemical weapon. No one dies (except for a couple people trampled in the panic), everyone gets a bad cough, but widespread panic causes everyone to stay home during the christmas season. Retailers fail, stocks crash, layoffs, etc...

    But no one dies from the chemicals, so we are cool, right?

    And Bullsi, and a couple of others also, GETS IT! It is more than simple Kinetic strikes. Look at the second and third order effects. Attacks and effects happen on different lines of effort. Money and economics, Cyber and infrastructure.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,153 Senior Member

    To you think Isaeli citizens freak out every time a rocket lands on their territory. No. They stick their middle finger in the air and go back to doing what they were doing.

    ...while being aware of developing threats, actively keeping dirtbags out of the country, developing and deploying missle shields, bulldozing clear fields of fire, profiling the poo out of everyone, arming all citizens to the teeth, and making sure EVERYONEin the country is part of the early warning and immediate response to terrorism.

    which is a good way to run things when you are under a constant threat.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,153 Senior Member
    ...like we are
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Rob O'Neill, Seal Team Six trigger-man on the UBL mission, said (paraphrasing here - not an exact quote) in one of his early interviews, that most team members regarded Al Qaeda as 99% bluff and bravado, but 1% very nasty, capable and competent. ISIS is obviously on to some ideas that have a greater likelihood of impacting more people, by encouraging them to act unilaterally, wherever they are. Naturally, most of them are also barely competent to carry out simple missions, but not all. It's all about the long-term strategies that ISIS can concoct, and our ability to predict them and stop them before they start. We have to stop them before all of these Internet recruits get smarter, and begin to have more successes, like Paris.

    If you think about it, these Internet recruits can easily have the same impact, or better, than all of these home-grown suicidal mass murderers that attack gun free zones, or as the Chicago gang-bangers that manage to murder people on a regular basis. And they can strike at any location. The goal of ISIS is to instill terror and confusion to the extent that we lose our freedom, while killing as many as possible. The freak-out by the press resulting from the Paris attack benefits their morale and recruitment, but is unfortunately needed to try to goad our CIC into some seriously needed interdiction strategy on their turf.

    The one thing that the current administration is right about, and it's a no-brainer, is that we have to continue to go about our lives without giving up our freedom. What they don't want to deal with is that the public wants this situation to end, before it gets cranked up to Israeli levels, because we all know instinctively that we have the resources to stop or slow it, dramatically, and that we have people with the will and the expertise to do it.

    Also, we know that the recent attacks in Europe provide our NATO allies with the incentive that would enable competent foreign policy experts to cobble together a coalition like Bush 1 put together for the first Gulf War. The differences would be that there needs to be an ongoing commitment to keep the pressure on for decades, if necessary. That would require a bi-partisan plan that the peaceniks could not undermine, half-way through it, for political gain. Whether or not one agrees about invading Iraq, the fact is that the the battle against terrorism was half-won when we occupied Iraq and scattered the Taliban. Our CIC pissed it all off, and started courting Iran, which is a disaster. He is too childish to admit his failures and try to make amends, and too political to govern for all of the people, so American citizens are probably on our own for another year, at which time this opportunity for a legitimate coalition of western nations may have vanished. Local police are going to bear the burden, as if they didn't have enough to bear with our own domestic agitators.
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,281 Senior Member
    A series of Stinger type missile attacks is my biggest concern. Hundreds of the Russian version went missing after Benghazi. Even if they miss, the disruption to air travel
    will be severe and long lasting.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,670 Senior Member
    Yeah, that's the thing I don't think the general populace realizes: there's a lot of chemicals out there that are really, really common and dangerous.
    Harder to get but can be had is Sodium Cyanide + any acid.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Exactly. The world terror organizations need to understand that we are nice people who want to make friends, but if you threaten us for long enough, we will **** you up. They can figure out for themselves when we've collectively had enough of their chickenshiite behavior.
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    I can't believe there was a comparison between Israel and America in the term of terror reaction. That is like comparing wolves to sheep, literally.

    1) Israel lives in the constant threat of everyone in the region wanting them dead, and the acknowledge this.
    - America has yet to even acknowledge there is a threat to western society
    2) Israel lives a life style that reflects their acknowledgment that everyone is trying to kill them.
    - America is inconvenienced by taking off shoes at the airport.
    3) Israel has the best Intelligence agency in the world and collects a lot via HUMINT and SIGINT
    - America passed legislature in the 90's limiting how we collect HUMINT.
    4) Israel has strict immigration laws and a comprehensive missile defense network because of points 1,2,&3.
    - The number of undocumented immigrants in America outnumbers the number of Israeli citizens and we deploy our national guard outside of the
    country rather than using them for...National guard

    Have you asked yourself why ISIS, AQ, Taliban haven't attacked Israel? Because they know they can't take them on yet and win on any of the battlefronts they are fighting. They toyed with Jordan once...DID you see it happen again? Because the realized they can't fight Jordan yet.

    Also, Afghanistan = Taliban, HQI, and a few others. Iraq = AQ, JAM, BADR, and a few others. It is important to understand the area that each is operating in. Because, believe it or not, not all of them have the same end goal. And, that is what separates ISIS from them. While AQ want to operate in an area and "own it", the concept is more of a gang mentality. They didn't want any of the other parts of holding land. The same with Taliban. And both wanted to strike the western culture. The ISIS end game is simple, Global Caliphate. They are pursuing many different means to get there. As I mentioned a few times, they understand Asymmetric warfare along multiple lines of effort. They understand the land game. They understand the information operations. They understand the cyber battle ground. They understand the economic battle ground. And, they are attacking across each one of them. ISIS owns land, The have a government, they have their own money, they have an Army. ISIS is a country.

    ISIS has chemical weapons. While it is low order stuff in the form of Mustard gas, that is all they need right now. How long is it until they can get a hold of something else. North Korea always needs money. What is in Africa for sell?
    Yeah we have really smart guys providing information for really kick-butt guys to go erase people from the earth. But, people don't understand the scope and the size of our tier one community. The American tier one community is the best there is (sorry Shush, Orchid) but there are not enough of them to stop everything. Their just isn't. If there were, don't you think this would have been resolved a lot quicker? Don't you think they wouldn't have even developed a chemical program to begin with? Don't you think there would have been a quicker resolution to a lot of the issues we see popping up?

    Oh and only believe Half of what a SEAL writes, and about a third of what they tell you....
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    I'm on your side, sarge.

    Forgive my naivete about special ops guys, but I am slightly less naive than most other non-military types. I was only trying to make the point that ISIS is different from Al Qaeda, and the comment from O'Neill seemed like a good lead-in.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    If Alpha ever sucks in a couple of lung-fulls of chlorine gas, he'll change his tune immediately. Been there, done that, got the lung scarring to prove it. And it wasn't a high concentration of chlorine gas. You guys that are ex-mil remember the tear gas house where they introduced you to that stuff. Well, chlorine gas is like that but at about 40X the effect. Your lungs/throat lock down and your eyes feel like somebody poured gas on them and set the gas on fire. Even after you get out of it and in good air you still think you're going to asphyxiate. Playing in the lab and reading reports is one thing; actual experience is an entirely different thing.

    Breamfisher hit it square on the head about insecticides. Take hornet and wasp spray as an example. The concentration of active ingredients is VERY LOW. Use the pure stuff and let it loose in droplet form on people and watch the result. The stuff is absorbed through the skin; you don't have to inhale it. It shuts down the lizard part of the brain that controls breathing and heartbeat. Pretty good terror weapon if you could get your hands on the undiluted stuff.

    Methyl isocyanate; Bhopal India. Anyone remember that one?
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I'm on your side, sarge.

    Forgive my naivete about special ops guys, but I am slightly less naive than most other non-military types. I was only trying to make the point that ISIS is different from Al Qaeda, and the comment from O'Neill seemed like a good lead-in.

    I know, I didn't mean to sound so combative towards ya. And, while I acknowledge SEALS are some kick-butt super human dudes, I know they also have super human egos.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
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