Is there where the next Revolution starts?

centermass556centermass556 Senior MemberPosts: 3,508 Senior Member
https://www.rt.com/usa/327762-armed-bundy-militia-oregon-ranchers/

Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy’s three sons and “about 150” militiamen have occupied the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge HQ to protest the pending imprisonment of two Oregon ranchers accused of arson, arguing the federal government has no authority in local cases.
"To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
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Replies

  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Idiots.

    Cliven Bundy, and his "cause", was never something to rally too in the first place. He is a thief.

    The occupiers say they will give up peacefully tomorrow.

    I hope they get max penalties for stupidity.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,110 Senior Member
    That is not the hill I am going to die on. Bundy should have stayed forgotten after his 15 minutes were over. The Hammonds? I don't know what else to say. They screwed the pooch and are paying for it...

    http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,665 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    That is not the hill I am going to die on. Bundy should have stayed forgotten after his 15 minutes were over. The Hammonds? I don't know what else to say. They screwed the pooch and are paying for it...

    http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison
    That. Intentionally lighting wildfires is not OK. Especially not when used as a method to cover up poaching. There's a lot of very bad outcomes that could come from that, not the least of which is murdering firefighters.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,632 Senior Member
    Everyone's a little hasty to believe the federal government....I rememeber being told the Branch Davidians were raping children, had machine guns, and committed mass suicide. I remember being told Randy Weaver was a member of the Aryan Nation, had fired on a news helicopter, and murdered a federal marshal.

    The Bundy's may be thieves and the Hammonds may have committed arson to cover up poaching.

    Anyone want examples of the fed conducting theft or arson?
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,508 Senior Member
    I'm not in a favor of Sedition...However, I thought it was our policy to send weapons and support to moderate rebels that are opposed to the currently established government...I mean we've been doing it for the past three years, why stop now.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,342 Senior Member
    Stopping federal abuse of citizens should be done at the ballot box- - - - -ummmmm- - - -like Dr. Phil says, "How's that working out for ya?" We're getting dangerously close to having no other option but armed insurrection!

    "A man's freedom rests in three boxes- - - - -the ballot box, the jury box, and the bullet box"
    Frederic Douglass

    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    I read about this on line thismorning. The article was shallow, lacking full detail of precipitating events, but it seems that the ranchers in question received due process of law resulting in conviction and sentencing.

    If the occupying citizens are contentious of the results there is further due process of law available to deal with that.
    Seems to me?
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,507 Senior Member
    The Hammonds own relatives testified they started the first fire to cover up poaching on BLM land.

    These ranchers are getting screwed over when BLM rules change, but............................ it isn't their land. No matter how long they have been there.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,632 Senior Member
    The article above says Hammond started a fire to cover up poaching. No evidence of poaching was found. The convictions were based on testimony not physical evidence.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,665 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Everyone's a little hasty to believe the federal government....I rememeber being told the Branch Davidians were raping children, had machine guns, and committed mass suicide. I remember being told Randy Weaver was a member of the Aryan Nation, had fired on a news helicopter, and murdered a federal marshal.

    The Bundy's may be thieves and the Hammonds may have committed arson to cover up poaching.

    Anyone want examples of the fed conducting theft or arson?
    If those were just the claims I'd agree with you, but they were convicted in a court of law by a jury so must have been more than hearsay. Yes, the judicial system is imperfect, but one of them has been convicted twice. Most of the time when there's that much smoke there's fire.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,738 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    That is not the hill I am going to die on.
    :that: :win: :agree:

    While I think one's brewing, I don't think this is the spark to light it off. :nono:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    These ranchers are getting screwed over when BLM rules change, but............................ it isn't their land. No matter how long they have been there.
    This times a million. Feds suck, we all know that. What they are doing sucks for the guys there. Bundy is still a thief, that wants to enforce his theft with guns, and have it carry the veil of legitimacy. Hmmmmm. Sounds just like the Gov. he says he despises.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,738 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »

    While I think one's brewing, I don't think this is the spark to light it off. :nono:
    After a little more thought, I'm thinking O'dummy's "pen & phone" are more likely to spark one in the coming year than this.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,665 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The article above says Hammond started a fire to cover up poaching. No evidence of poaching was found. The convictions were based on testimony not physical evidence.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    They weren't convicted of poaching. Frankly doesn't matter why they started the fires, they intentionally burned land that wasn't theirs. That's Arson. That's a crime. If the land they burned was private property and not land owned by the American people I wonder if you'd feel the same way?
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,342 Senior Member
    So far, the feds have backed down when confronted by armed resistance. "The shot heard round the world" hasn't happened yet, and just like before, it really won't matter which side fires it. Once there's the first firefight between some of the alphabet soup agency goons and whatever citizens' group happens to be in the crosshairs, neither side is going to be as reluctant to hold their fire the next time.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,632 Senior Member
    They weren't convicted of poaching. Frankly doesn't matter why they started the fires, they intentionally burned land that wasn't theirs. That's Arson. That's a crime. If the land they burned was private property and not land owned by the American people I wonder if you'd feel the same way?

    My point was there was no physical evidence. Only witness testimony. Too many people in prison for decades based on testimony, only to be released when actual evidence surfaces. I will always give a citizen the benefit of the doubt, and be suspicious of government, especially the Feds.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,957 Senior Member
    Didn't hear the evidence presented to the jury, but it doesn't matter. That is not a cause I would fight and possibly die for.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,493 Senior Member
    Thing that bothers me was they were tried, sentanced, released, THEN a judge decided that it wasnt enough and says they go back to jail.

    Really? So we make it up as we go? If there is enough room to put people back in after they did their time, there are a lot better candidates for another hitch.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,507 Senior Member
    Thing that bothers me was they were tried, sentanced, released, THEN a judge decided that it wasnt enough and says they go back to jail.

    Really? So we make it up as we go? If there is enough room to put people back in after they did their time, there are a lot better candidates for another hitch.

    It went to a Federal Appeals court, but who filed the appeal? You hear of the convicted filing appeals, not the other way around.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,632 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    It went to a Federal Appeals court, but who filed the appeal? You hear of the convicted filing appeals, not the other way around.

    The Hammonds challenged the five year mandatory minimum sentence as unconstitutional and won. Then the Feds appealed and won their case. Feds really wanted these two in prison.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,623 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Stopping federal abuse of citizens should be done at the ballot box- - - - -ummmmm- - - -like Dr. Phil says, "How's that working out for ya?" We're getting dangerously close to having no other option but armed insurrection!

    "A man's freedom rests in three boxes- - - - -the ballot box, the jury box, and the bullet box"
    Frederic Douglass

    Jerry

    There have been times when the ballot box was no longer the answer and government was no longer reasonable. Unless something changes I think we may be headed down that road again!
    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    timc wrote: »
    There have been times when the ballot box was no longer the answer and government was no longer reasonable. Unless something changes I think we may be headed down that road again!

    Maybe, but this isn't it. As Jerm said I ain't dying on this hill for an arsonist, and a thieves.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,110 Senior Member
    Thing that bothers me was they were tried, sentanced, released, THEN a judge decided that it wasnt enough and says they go back to jail.

    Really? So we make it up as we go? If there is enough room to put people back in after they did their time, there are a lot better candidates for another hitch.

    Maybe that's why Oblowhole is purging all the criminal illegal aliens from prisons so he can fill them back up again with pissed-off conservative gun owners.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,110 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The Hammonds challenged the five year mandatory minimum sentence as unconstitutional and won. Then the Feds appealed and won their case. Feds really wanted these two in prison.
    The first time they were sentenced, the judge gave one 3 months or so and the other a year explaining that the mandatory 5 years was cruel and unusual. They did their time for those sentences, then the federal attorney appealed the sentence and got them the 5 full years. SCOTUS refused to hear the case.

    The Hammonds do not deny that they set the fires. They have also made it known that the Bundy boys and all the other jackasses do not speak for them. I will argue that the 5 year minimum sentence as well as all the other mandatory minimum sentences are not just. It is a one size fits all solution to crime and punishment and ALL mandatory minimum sentences should be repealed.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,684 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    The first time they were sentenced, the judge gave one 3 months or so and the other a year explaining that the mandatory 5 years was cruel and unusual. They did their time for those sentences, then the federal attorney appealed the sentence and got them the 5 full years. SCOTUS refused to hear the case.

    The Hammonds do not deny that they set the fires. They have also made it known that the Bundy boys and all the other jackasses do not speak for them. I will argue that the 5 year minimum sentence as well as all the other mandatory minimum sentences are not just. It is a one size fits all solution to crime and punishment and ALL mandatory minimum sentences should be repealed.

    That is two things I do not agree with there- Judicial Activism (judge not following the law), and mandatory sentences.

    If that had been Jury nullification (a jury refusing a minimum sentence), then that is completely legal, and something that might be worth defending. But a Judge is there to enforce the rules and order in a trial. Not make up rules.

    And mandatory punishment is wrong. Morally and constitutionally wrong
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,665 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I will argue that the 5 year minimum sentence as well as all the other mandatory minimum sentences are not just. It is a one size fits all solution to crime and punishment and ALL mandatory minimum sentences should be repealed.

    I do agree with this. There is a reason they're called "judges". They need to be able to weigh all the facts of a case in their decisions. Mandatory minimums fall in the same category as " zero tolerance " in my book.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    I got some clarification on this now.

    The Bundys are disputing control/use of Federally claimed land in Nevada. Now they're in Oregon continuing that dispute in the name of people that wish not to be included in said dispute.

    To further convelude an already quaigmiered calamity, they've seized/ occupied a wildlife refuge.

    I don't think revolution is the right word here.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,632 Senior Member
    Just a little more information.

    "In 2011, 5 years after the police report was taken, the U.S. Attorney Office accused Dwight and Steven Hammond of completely different charges (dropping arson charges), they accused them of being “Terrorist” under the Federal Antiterrorism Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996. This act carries a minimum sentence of five years in prison and a maximum sentence of death . . .

    On January 4, 2013, Dwight and Steven reported to prison. They fulfilled their sentences, (Dwight 3 months, Steven 12 months). Dwight was released in March 2013 and Steven, January 2014 . . .

    In October 2015, the 9th District Court “resentenced” Dwight and Steven, requiring them to return to prison for several more years. Steven (46) has a wife and 3 children. Dwight (74) will leave Susan (74) to be alone after 55 years of marriage. If he survives, he will be 79 when he is released.

    During the court preceding the Hammonds were forced to grant the BLM first right of refusal. If the Hammonds ever sold their ranch they would have to sell it to the BLM Emphasis added


    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "A man's freedom rests in three boxes- - - - -the ballot box, the jury box, and the bullet box"
    Frederic Douglass

    And if good men and women do nothing to safeguard their freedom, a fourth box awaits, the coffin box......
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Seems like two separate things happening here. No one interviewed has brought up the circumstances of the injustice of the two Oregon ranchers including them. Their responses and comments to the media have been vague.

    Also the only request/demand has been for the Federal land occupied to be returned to local control.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
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