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bisley
Senior MemberPosts: 10,813 Senior Member
Budget AR build...who am I kidding?
bisley
Senior MemberPosts: 10,813 Senior Member
Myself, mostly.
I (and my oldest grandson) built 'budget AR's.' Actually, we built the lower receivers, and then bought low-end complete uppers, because the cost saving of building, rather than buying, complete uppers was negligible. Mine was all Palmetto, because I happened to catch a good sale on a 1:7 complete upper, which is fine for me because I hand load, and all my components are for loading 64 grain or above bullets. My grandson's upper was one I bought at a gunshow, because it had a railed thin profile handguard like he wanted, a 1:8 barrel, and a nickel boron bolt, for just under $400, brand unknown. We got them both together and on the range, shooting, for well under $500 each. Mine was about $460, his about $485. Not bad at all, and they both performed better than I really expected. But....
Since both rifles were pretty good shooters, they deserved some upgrades, right? Right. We both wanted RRA National Match triggers, because they were on sale for $62, about half price. I couldn't see well enough to use my iron sights at 50 yards, so I added a Vortex Sparc red dot, about $230. He added a cheaper Sightmark red dot, about $100, and we both added a Magpul front grip. He added a Magpul butt stock. I did not, because I couldn't tell that it was much better than the Palmetto I already had. I bought a VTAC two point sling and QD mounts. He got a Magpul single point sling and we added the mount behind the receiver.
Then, my grandson's AR had the problem I described at length in another thread, with the hand guard slipping, (due to a loose barrel nut) so we ended up replacing it with a good, cheap semi-copy of a Wilson Combat Trim hand guard, for about $50. He liked it, but liked the 15" better than the 12" I ordered. So, I ordered a 15", for $65, and put it on his, and replaced the cheese grater quad rail on mine with the 12". Then, both of us bought Magpul grips, about $25 each.
Meanwhile, I discovered that my eyesight was inadequate for un-magnified shooting at 50 yards. So, on the recommendation of forum enablers, I spent $330 for a Leupold shotgun/muzzleloader 1-4x scope and a Burris PEPR QD mount (still untested at the range). So, here is the tally (so far) for me:
My rifle, complete, with no options - $460, plus..
$62 trigger
35 front grip
50 sling and mounts
50 hand guard
*230 red dot
330 scope/mount
30 QD sling adapter for keymod guard
$737+460=1197-230= $967 (I subtracted the *red dot since I will use it elsewhere, eventually)
CONCLUSION:
My goal was to have a fun, 50 yard semi-auto rifle for plinking, that could double as a home defense weapon, under extreme circumstances, for under $500. I achieved that goal easily, but discovered that I was not content to shoot paper plates at 50 yards with a rifle that was capable of much more. Anyone here could have probably predicted that this would happen, including me. Anyway, it was fun doing it, and I am now completely un-intimidated about working on AR type rifles. Heck, I may even paint the thing, before I quit tinkering with it. My grandson has learned a lot, and my wife is interested in shooting, now, after 40 plus years of disinterest. When we go to the range, she asks if we're taking the AR-15s, and goes with us if we are - big victory.
So, if you want a budget AR, keep this in mind - you probably won't quit with the low-budget option. The 'nickel and dime' stuff adds up.
I (and my oldest grandson) built 'budget AR's.' Actually, we built the lower receivers, and then bought low-end complete uppers, because the cost saving of building, rather than buying, complete uppers was negligible. Mine was all Palmetto, because I happened to catch a good sale on a 1:7 complete upper, which is fine for me because I hand load, and all my components are for loading 64 grain or above bullets. My grandson's upper was one I bought at a gunshow, because it had a railed thin profile handguard like he wanted, a 1:8 barrel, and a nickel boron bolt, for just under $400, brand unknown. We got them both together and on the range, shooting, for well under $500 each. Mine was about $460, his about $485. Not bad at all, and they both performed better than I really expected. But....
Since both rifles were pretty good shooters, they deserved some upgrades, right? Right. We both wanted RRA National Match triggers, because they were on sale for $62, about half price. I couldn't see well enough to use my iron sights at 50 yards, so I added a Vortex Sparc red dot, about $230. He added a cheaper Sightmark red dot, about $100, and we both added a Magpul front grip. He added a Magpul butt stock. I did not, because I couldn't tell that it was much better than the Palmetto I already had. I bought a VTAC two point sling and QD mounts. He got a Magpul single point sling and we added the mount behind the receiver.
Then, my grandson's AR had the problem I described at length in another thread, with the hand guard slipping, (due to a loose barrel nut) so we ended up replacing it with a good, cheap semi-copy of a Wilson Combat Trim hand guard, for about $50. He liked it, but liked the 15" better than the 12" I ordered. So, I ordered a 15", for $65, and put it on his, and replaced the cheese grater quad rail on mine with the 12". Then, both of us bought Magpul grips, about $25 each.
Meanwhile, I discovered that my eyesight was inadequate for un-magnified shooting at 50 yards. So, on the recommendation of forum enablers, I spent $330 for a Leupold shotgun/muzzleloader 1-4x scope and a Burris PEPR QD mount (still untested at the range). So, here is the tally (so far) for me:
My rifle, complete, with no options - $460, plus..
$62 trigger
35 front grip
50 sling and mounts
50 hand guard
*230 red dot
330 scope/mount
30 QD sling adapter for keymod guard
$737+460=1197-230= $967 (I subtracted the *red dot since I will use it elsewhere, eventually)
CONCLUSION:
My goal was to have a fun, 50 yard semi-auto rifle for plinking, that could double as a home defense weapon, under extreme circumstances, for under $500. I achieved that goal easily, but discovered that I was not content to shoot paper plates at 50 yards with a rifle that was capable of much more. Anyone here could have probably predicted that this would happen, including me. Anyway, it was fun doing it, and I am now completely un-intimidated about working on AR type rifles. Heck, I may even paint the thing, before I quit tinkering with it. My grandson has learned a lot, and my wife is interested in shooting, now, after 40 plus years of disinterest. When we go to the range, she asks if we're taking the AR-15s, and goes with us if we are - big victory.
So, if you want a budget AR, keep this in mind - you probably won't quit with the low-budget option. The 'nickel and dime' stuff adds up.
Replies
All I know, so far, is that I can't hit small targets at 50 yards and that upsets me. I'll try the scope, and if I can use it up close, I'm done. If not, I'll have to decide for sure what I'm going to use this rifle for, and either use something I've got, or try something new, like the sight you're looking at. Please buy it and give it a good test, just in case I might someday be interested in it. :tooth:
If paper plates at 50 yards turns out to be the answer, I can go back to irons or the red dot...or my Glock 10mm, for that matter. But I'm at least going to find out what the rifle can do with a scope, first, and see if that has a home defense role.
Maybe a 300 blackout caliber, subsonic to cut down on report & muzzle flash indoors.
This is what I'm thinking. Actually, for HD I would think something on the order of an M1 Carbine would be great, but a 300 BO wound be better. It would be cool if Ruger would make their Ranch Rifle in 300 B.O.
For my .02 worth, a .223 comes out the barrel a little swiftly for HD. Penetration through walls and such (I live in town). I don't know, maybe my thinking on this is flawed, but from what I've seen of .223s-5.56s I don't like the idea.
Edited to Add:
Actually, a Ruger semi carbine in 44 Mag. always struck me as a great HD rifle. Take the stock off and replace it with a pistol grip style. Then it would be very maneuverable.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
My dearly departed dad always said that the M1 Carbine was perfect for people who couldn't shoot pistols well, and I'm approaching my first steps down that path, now. :tooth:
I guess that was the original poodle shooter ?
lol :jester:
Dunno, seen some old war birds (Colonel) into their 70s that could outshoot almost any young sprat.
I go by their booth every year at SHOT. One guy there knows a guy that lives in town here from way back.
I use to have one of their old sights that was just the fiber optic one. I liked it a lot, gave it to a family member to try and he gave it to another family member and he gave it to a friend in the end I'm not sure where it's at. Everyone that has put it on a gun has loved it I believe most of them where using them as a secondary back up sights on an AR.
After looking at them at SHOT, I am going to order some of the new ones for the shop. And after talking to people about them I already have orders for them.
I also thought their system for mounting the sight on a pistol using the existing dive tail was pretty cool as well.
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I have that same Leupold 1-4x scope with the Pig Plex reticle. The reticle in mine was too thick for shooting groups I want to show off.
My opinion.
Dad 5-31-13
The others I waited and looked until I decided exactly what I wanted. The only money I saved was from not buying stuff twice.
Dad 5-31-13
Duh?
I'm going to sight my rifle in with the scope I bought for it. Then, I'm going to remove it and install it on my grandson's rifle and shoot a group or two with it. Then I'm going to take it back off of my grandson's rifle and put it back on my rifle and re-check for zero. Then I will sight in my grandson's rifle with his red dot mounted. Is this different from what you said?
My reticle is thick, until it gets to the cross, where it thins out into a fairly normal reticle. I think it will be fine enough for a 100 yard group. I just want a comparison - not a super-duper cloverleaf, necessarily, although I would really love that. And, in the process, I will know how well it stays zeroed after removing it and putting it back on.
In its current configuration, with a Daniel Defense complete upper, Trijicon ACOG, RRA NM trigger, etc... I intentionally stopped keeping track of what I was spending on it.
My next rig that I'm working on will be no different. I'm saving money where I can, but the idea is to get the best quality AR possible from known brand name companies that will back up their products. I'm still building it piece by piece though ;-)
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
The cheap scout scope on the mosin has not self destructed yet. I will put one of the See-All sights on there when it does.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
OK, farm boy,
You were right. There is no possibility of shooting a tight group at 100 yards with my reticle at 100 yards. I got about a 3" group by using a round 9" paper plate to center on. This was with a practice load, 62 grain steel core military surplus.
I did shoot a decent 50 yard group with 68 gr. Hornady Match that I had loaded for my 20" heavy barrel, centering a 2" orange dot. It was under 1", so I'll go with that for this rifle, too. I think it might be close to a MOA rifle, with the right scope, but that isn't what I wanted this one for.
Funny thing happened. I had my LR308 out to tune the Syrac Ordnance adjustable gas block and found out the barrel nut is loose on it just like your grandson's rifle. I got that fixed yesterday, hopefully I get to try again this month.
Dad 5-31-13
For me HD/SD rifles are not for the "budget" market. Their cost is not all that significant over "low cost" parts, but often the quality is measurably better than cheap options.
An HD/SD rifle is simple: rifle, red dot, irons, magazines. Essentially.
All that can be one-and-done for sub-$1200 of you shop sales on Colt, FN, etc. S&W MP15 maybe if you can't find one of the "mil-spec" brands.
Competition guns on the other hand are very subject to parting out to build one significantly less expensive than $3000 or $4000 JP, Noveske, etc 3-Gun rifles. They are often high-speed, no drag and are subject to parts replacement and upgrade of worn out parts.
For HD/SD you want high speed low drag, on the other hand. It doesn't need to have light weight BCAs, adjustable gas blocks, low mass buffers, buffer springs made from strands of unicorn pubes, etc. It needs to be reliable...mil-spec trigger, mil-spec assembly, etc and needs to be environmentally durable.
Cut costs when losing means you don't get a blue ribbon, not when losing means your life.
Apparently, the barrel nut thing is not a huge deal, safety wise. It just doesn't shoot very precisely.
I've shot several ~1" groups with that bullet, in my 20" heavy barrel, with a max load. I do get a few uncalled flyers, occasionally, but they have done better than expected in both of my .223's.
I might feel the same if I was in your business, but I'm fairly new to AR's and have not really begun to think of mine in terms of self defense, yet. I have two others, both set up for hunting, and I just wanted this one to play with, mainly.
In defense of cheap AR's, though, I have to say that I'm fairly impressed with the performance of my Palmetto, and my grandson's no-name works fine, too, once we got the kinks lined out. He was shooting 10 round groups into 3" at 50 yards, after we put my Vortex Sparc II red dot on it. Neither of ours has malfunctioned, and are more accurate than I really expected.
I don't disagree there.
But, if it was a tool to be used in my everyday work, it would be built from the highest grade parts I could find. Dollar value would not be part of the equation.
Quite a bit, for me. Not on this rifle, because I put the NM trigger in when I built the lower receiver. But I replaced the factory trigger in my Remington R-25, which is nothing more than a DPMS LR-308, and my groups shrank from just over 1" to 0.75" at 100 yards. The NM trigger is not in the class with a Timney, etc. But it is a significant improvement over mil-spec, and what I will likely always use, if I can get them for $62.
The DPMS trigger that came in the parts kit, totally 100% sucked. It was worse than any of the triggers in the M-16 and M-16A2s I used in the Army.
After shooting a fellow forum members at one of the SE Shoots I decided it was time for a change. There is a guy that does AR builds/parts that comes to the local gun shows and I stopped by his booth for a chat.
I can not remember the make but I ended up installing a single stage trigger that breaks around 4 lbs. It is nothing all that fancy except that it is smooth, no grit or grind, breaks clean and resets easily.
Having an EOTech for its optic it is not set up to shoot groups, but it went from being real close to clustering all shots to center of target when at the range. Lose estimation is that groups were easily cut in half, but the original trigger totally sucked.