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James Tarr & Patrick Sweeney Defend the Serpa

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  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,591 Senior Member
    Explain what? The video is only 9 seconds long...........
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    :spam: :spam: :spam:

    Strange fellow that.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Combat CommanderCombat Commander New Member Posts: 5 New Member
    cpj wrote: »
    How about you explain just what it is you are talking about?


    Did you not see Sweeney's finger inside the trigger guard?

    James Tarr and Sweeney were just saying how great the Serpa is and its a training problem.
  • Combat CommanderCombat Commander New Member Posts: 5 New Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    :spam: :spam: :spam:

    Strange fellow that.

    It's not spam more like keep Blackhawk happy so we can have a TV show.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Well then, when you post, preface with a proper introduction and an explanation.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    That being said; I was present at a training session for Uniformed Federal Protection Services, quite some years ago, and they had these fancy looking holsters, after observing these holsters in actual use, My unsolicited recomendation was to scrap that model for a better model.

    Why ? no Officer present could draw their sidearm ( revolvers ) without excessive tugging and struggling.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,894 Senior Member
    Did you not see Sweeney's finger inside the trigger guard?

    James Tarr and Sweeney were just saying how great the Serpa is and its a training problem.
    Looks to me like he was demonstrating how to use the SERPA incorrectly. I couldn't tell because the video was too short, began in the middle of the episode it seems, and was bereft of sound. In other words, it's hard for me to tell what was going on.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    See, now we can have a conversation now that we gather what you are talking about.


    And not having any affiliation with BH, I'll agree with them. If you fire the gun accidentally , it's your fault.

    While I agree with you. I own two, and have never popped one off on accident. I do find it infinitely humorous that Sweeney almost has an AD while espousing the virtues of the holster. Keep your booger hooks under control.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    From what little I did see, the belts they were using was letting the holster shift around to much, too thin.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Combat CommanderCombat Commander New Member Posts: 5 New Member
    Looks to me like he was demonstrating how to use the SERPA incorrectly. I couldn't tell because the video was too short, began in the middle of the episode it seems, and was bereft of sound. In other words, it's hard for me to tell what was going on.

    You would think but, no James and Patrick were saying how great they are. They don't understand why firearms instructors don't like them.

    Mr. Sweeney, is a highly trained person so maybe the problem is the holster.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Isn't that holster a solution looking for a problem to solve? Is the cop likely to be doing enough kung fu moves to need a locked-in gun, or is his situational awareness so deficient that he's likely to get into a tug of war with a scumbag over who gets to use the gun?
    Jerry
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,894 Senior Member
    Again... without hearing what they said - honestly, I can't get the sound to play for that one video, all others it work on - and not seeing the whole program, I really can't tell what's going on.

    And just because someone disallows something doesn't make it "bad." There's trainer who won't allow appendix carry. Larry Vickers comes to mind. It's not because it's a bad carry method, but because they won't or can't take the time to monitor and fix individual problems. Same with cross-draw for some trainers and competitions. It's a viable carry method but "bad" for some competitions and trainers because of logistic issues.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,578 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Isn't that holster a solution looking for a problem to solve? Is the cop likely to be doing enough kung fu moves to need a locked-in gun, or is his situational awareness so deficient that he's likely to get into a tug of war with a scumbag over who gets to use the gun?
    Jerry

    Are you suggesting no retention for uniformed officer duty carry of a sidearm?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,578 Senior Member
    They don't understand why firearms instructors don't like them.

    Mr. Sweeney, is a highly trained person so maybe the problem is the holster.

    A statement needing factual evidence beyond isolated examples.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Are you suggesting no retention for uniformed officer duty carry of a sidearm?

    Are you suggesting that uniformed officers should all use serpa holsters?
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,578 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that uniformed officers should all use serpa holsters?

    Nope.

    The implication I took from the quoted post was that retention was not needed by the rhetorical solution/problem reference and the, "Is he......." as in "Really?"
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    A thumb break holster worked for many years, and a user didn't need a degree in mechanical engineering to get his piece into action without any danger of becoming a eunuch. When I'm carrying my 1911 OWB I use a DeSantis rig with a thumb break strap between the cocked and locked hammer and the slide- - - -simple and effective, and it retains the gun very well.
    Jerry
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,578 Senior Member
    I don't have a mechanical engineering degree and I'm not a eunuch.

    Imagine that. I must be the only one.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,578 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    A thumb break holster worked for many years.......

    So, you are a proponent of retention. Just not a different retention than the thumb break?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,147 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I don't have a mechanical engineering degree and I'm not a eunuch.

    Imagine that. I must be the only one.

    No, you're not....I've used a Sherpa for years without putting a hole in myself. I've been aware of this supposed issue for years and still have a hard time figuring out how you shoot yourself while drawing from one...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,410 Senior Member
    The problem with the Serpa (or other gear) is not a problem with the Serpa (or other gear) - the Lowest Common Denominator can be pretty low, and they're damnably hard to design equipment for.

    The Serpa starts the draw by forcing the bits of the brain that control the trigger finger to cause it to start moving around in search of something IN ADDITION TO a master grip postion prior to moving to the trigger.

    If you've given them a Glock/XD/M&P and a Serpa, one of them will eventually shoot themselves in the foot because they're trigger finger is being asked to walk AND chew gum at the same time.

    If you give them a 1911 or other gun with a safety that must be disengaged prior to shooting and a Serpa, you've at least separated the trigger from the safety, but they'll either STILL shoot themselves in the foot because they felt a need to disengage ALL their safeties and retentions at once, or they'll GET shot because they forgot to take their safety off.

    If you give them a DA/SA, they'll miss - A LOT - or shoot themselves in the foot because they didn't remember to decock when holstering.

    If you give them a DAO, they'll still shoot themselves in the foot because they're wasn't a safety.

    Maybe we should just mandate a generation of 1911's with ONLY a grip safety, and let Darwin work his magic?
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 12,088 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    the Lowest Common Denominator can be pretty low,

    That statement is the root of almost any problem we run into in our daily lives.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    I have two Serpas, for my XD45 and G20. From the very first draw, I found it to be completely natural for me to draw and end up with my trigger finger being exactly where it should be as my off hand clamps on to my strong hand - resting along the side of the trigger guard and ready to touch the trigger in a split second. Granted that I don't have a fast draw, but it works just right for me.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    The Serpa is a stupid design. It's a design that, in one of the most stressful situations I can think of, intentionally puts your trigger finger DOING STUFF in close proximity to the trigger, instead of NOT DOING STUFF high on the frame/slide. Defend it if you will, it's still a stupid design...

    HOWEVER, my main problem with the Serpa isn't the increased potential for a negligent discharge (although, once again, really freakin stupid design), my main problem with the holster is how easy it is to get the gun locked into the holster. If anything gets behind the paddle, there's the possibility that you won't be able to depress it. If you can't press the little paddle thingie, you can't get your gun out of the holster. I personally had a Glock 19 locked into the holster from some gunk (leaves, dirt, algae, etc...) that I was cleaning out of the bottom of an old swimming pool. There's also numerous accounts of others getting their guns locked in the holster by various bits of debris...just google "locked up serpa."

    http://bfelabs.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/SERPA_lockup_Gomez_Craig.mp4?hc_location=ufi


    Also, as an aside, the mounts aren't very sturdy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuHWF1568U0&feature=youtu.be
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    I was just going by personal experience. Maybe it would still be good for old people who don't play paintball or shovel stuff all over themselves. :jester:
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Did you not see Sweeney's finger inside the trigger guard?

    James Tarr and Sweeney were just saying how great the Serpa is] and its a training problem.

    Yep, seems the trainer needs some training and practice on drawing the firearm. I don't see that as any fault of the holster. He just lost his concentration for a mili second there and let his finger creep inside the guard. I think he realized his mistake and immediately withdrew it. That kind of thing takes specific practice.

    I know you can't engineer things to be perfectly safe, and sometimes when the designers get stupid with it they over engineer safety until it's dangerous. However, I don't mind a certain amount of good solid safety engineering. Whether some of you want to admit it, nobody, save one, is perfect. We are all fallible humans.

    I think Trigger locks are stupid and dangerous. But some safety features are good. I remember when seat belts first came out in cars. My dad had them in our car about 5 years prior to that. He was a fighter pilot and survived a crash landing in a flax field in England because of belts. So he related this to auto mobile safety.

    If a gun is where a kid or irresponsible adult can get to it, it should be unloaded or better still, locked away in a safe location. To try to engineer safety into that scenario is foolish and can leave the gun owner unarmed in the most unopportune moment.

    Everyone in a household should be trained to some extent, even young kids should be taught to not touch a gun if they find it unless a responsible adult is present. I know this sounds libtard, but it's the safety training coming out in me. I've heard people tell me that they taught their kids to not touch their guns unless they were present, but then I've heard true, varified stories where someone was killed or injured by just such a kid that was supposed to know better. They're kids. Yeah there's one now and then that is a little more responsible than average, but the vast majority are still kids and susceptible to mistakes more so than responsible adults.

    And nobody here is going to convince me that a young kid say under 12 is mature enough to be trusted 100% of the time, and if you do, I've got a couple horror stories for you if you believe that. They're kids and more often revert to that until they mature. I have loaded guns in this house that are not in the safe. But I have a lock on my bedroom door where they are and when I'm not inside that room, it's locked. However, when I'm not in there and that door is locked, I have my 9mm on my person loaded and ready. So I'm safe but covered.

    OK off my safety soap box, but it's good to bring it up. Even if we don't completely agree on every point, when somebody brings it up, it makes us think and that's a good thing. Anyway, safety rant off and back on subject.

    I don't think Sweeney did bad, he just remined us that we are not above mistakes. Some of us are better about it than others and some people are just downright dangerous, but I don't think this is so much a problem with this holster. And besides, Sweeney was practicing safe gun handling in that he didn't point it at anything he didn't intend to shoot.

    In my opinion, The important thing to remember about this holster or any firearm accessory is to know it and how it works. That's the key to safe operation.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Combat CommanderCombat Commander New Member Posts: 5 New Member
    Well said snake284
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,578 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    The Serpa is a stupid design. It's a design that, in one of the most stressful situations I can think of, intentionally puts your trigger finger DOING STUFF in close proximity to the trigger, instead of NOT DOING STUFF high on the frame/slide. Defend it if you will, it's still a stupid design...

    HOWEVER, my main problem with the Serpa isn't the increased potential for a negligent discharge (although, once again, really freakin stupid design), my main problem with the holster is how easy it is to get the gun locked into the holster. If anything gets behind the paddle, there's the possibility that you won't be able to depress it. If you can't press the little paddle thingie, you can't get your gun out of the holster. I personally had a Glock 19 locked into the holster from some gunk (leaves, dirt, algae, etc...) that I was cleaning out of the bottom of an old swimming pool. There's also numerous accounts of others getting their guns locked in the holster by various bits of debris...just google "locked up serpa".

    It is so common, that I personally know.....................zero people who use the holster and have experienced a failure, breakage, negligent discharge, and otherwise mishap while utilizing the Serpa since its inception. And that's a few people who use it on a daily basis.

    Stupid can break darn near anything. Stupid can screw up darn near anything. Stupid can malfunction darn near anything. The one correlation in all this? Stupid.

    Don't be that.

    I'm sure, given the opportunity, I could drum up enough stupid determination to defeat, malfunction, and break most every holster out there. I could do the same and defeat, malfunction, break, and negligently discharge most every gun out there.

    In the end, one must simply pick the level of stupid they want to be. Nothing is safe from stupid.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    The amount of wear, abuse and mileage a LEOs equipment gets, is way more than your regular CCW, equipment that may be acceptable for that CCW, may be rejected in tests, if inherent problems are discovered during the initial trial testing phase in the lab experiments, before it sees street testing.

    The fault may be user induced or user error, even if it is a great holster, this is often enough to reject any particular model holster.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Nothing is safe from stupid.

    This should be cast in a bronze plaque.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
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