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Enough from the "Entitled Leaches"!

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  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,611 Senior Member
    I share your feelings bout SS, but it is what it is and isn't going away. That said, given the state of financial markets and the extreme corruption and fraud on wallstreet, the idea that at least there's a chance for a stable source of income in my golden years is appealing. Having to rely 100% on savings and the markets for retirement is also fairly scary, and this is coming from someone who already has a fairly large retirement savings, and another 30+ years to add to it.

    Like I said, I'd just as soon EVERYBODY that wanted to could just say "no thanks" and choose not to participate...this means that you and others get to split up my share to this point, but I'm not paying another thin dime and I will never collect any either. Unfortunately, Uncle doesn't give me a choice, so, you're welcome.

    Had a pillar of society decide to exercise her constitutional right to color outside the lines by 'shopping' in customer's cars the other day. She lives and is 'employed' in the no-tell motel halfway house across the road from work. She is a regular shoplifter/customer at our store, as are many of her 'neighbors'. Every last ing one of them lives there on my dime, and eats from my table. When they "make a mistake" and get arrested for the offense dujour, they are punished on the 'catch and release' offender program and are told they cannot come back to the store...this means we get to repeatedly kick them out of the store for trespassing. Of course, technically she wasn't trespassing, since she hadn't actually entered the building. She and her neighbors are free to conduct business as they see fit, and we get to drop whatever it is that we are supposed to be doing whenever one of them shows up, in order to follow them around the store, making sure they aren't helping themselves to whatever the hell they feel like, at any time, for any reason. And still, we are paying for them to live like this.

    Hey, at least the folks running the various government entities involved in 'rehabbing' these folks get to retire early and move to Boca, so they're not going to have to worry about how their golden years play out...:roll: In the meantime, guys like me get to hear about how we can fix the problem by pouring just a little more gas on the fire.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    CGG, you clearly lack compassion. Alpha has tried to make it clear to you that those folks have been denied opportunities that others were afforded in previous years and in this day and age, there just aren't any opportunities left out there. They've all been used up! Those people would be eager to become productive members of society but with the lack of opportunities available to them, they have to rely on public assistance and involuntary contributions from the general public. Please show some compassion and the next time you run into one of these people, reach deep into your pockets and do some giving. Just tell yourself, "this is what Alpha would do".:jester:
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,611 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    CGG, you clearly lack compassion. Alpha has tried to make it clear to you that those folks have been denied opportunities that others were afforded in previous years and in this day and age, there just aren't any opportunities left out there. They've all been used up! Those people would be eager to become productive members of society but with the lack of opportunities available to them, they have to rely on public assistance and involuntary contributions from the general public. Please show some compassion and the next time you run into one of these people, reach deep into your pockets and do some giving. Just tell yourself, "this is what Alpha would do".:jester:

    I may not agree with Alpha often, but I do like to hear from his perspective in our threads. Maybe I'm a little touchy on this one, but that doesn't mean we can't all get along, lol. :jester:

    I like the 'involuntary contribution' line! :win:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    I may not agree with Alpha often, but I do like to hear from his perspective in our threads. Maybe I'm a little touchy on this one, but that doesn't mean we can't all get along, lol. :jester:



    I may butt heads with Chris about his political views on the forum, but I've met him at the SE shoot a couple of times and he's actually a really nice guy. I've been to five or six of the shoots and I don't recall anyone ever talking politics at one or not getting along.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,611 Senior Member
    And that is why I love this place!
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member
    People who stay at minimum wage jobs forever have only themselves to blame for that condition. Did they pay attention in school and learn anything? Did they check out the state trades schools, attend one, and get their ticket in welding, plumbing, pipefitting, carpentry, residential electric, heating and air conditioning, machining, solar thermal and electric, robotics, etc.? If not, then why not? Lots of money available for those schools. And lots of jobs in those fields. You don't have to be a college educated cubicle rat to make good money with low debt on any loans needed to attend those trade schools. Stuff breaks or needs repairing, and the people that do that are always in demand.

    Like my Granddad used to say, "Some people were born tired and haven't got rested yet." Sayin'.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,518 Senior Member
    Here's the thing about trade schools....


    I'm not sure folks in high school even KNOW what trade schools exist. From what I've seen lately, all the high school curricula is geared towards getting folks in college. I wonder if folks get stuck in low-paying jobs because some of them don't really know that there's other jobs out there.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,611 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    People who stay at minimum wage jobs forever have only themselves to blame for that condition. Did they pay attention in school and learn anything? Did they check out the state trades schools, attend one, and get their ticket in welding, plumbing, pipefitting, carpentry, residential electric, heating and air conditioning, machining, solar thermal and electric, robotics, etc.? If not, then why not? Lots of money available for those schools. And lots of jobs in those fields. You don't have to be a college educated cubicle rat to make good money with low debt on any loans needed to attend those trade schools. Stuff breaks or needs repairing, and the people that do that are always in demand.

    Like my Granddad used to say, "Some people were born tired and haven't got rested yet." Sayin'.


    In their defense, it's hard work getting rested.
    Here's the thing about trade schools....


    I'm not sure folks in high school even KNOW what trade schools exist. From what I've seen lately, all the high school curricula is geared towards getting folks in college. I wonder if folks get stuck in low-paying jobs because some of them don't really know that there's other jobs out there.

    Truer words are seldom posted here. Add to these, the attitude that being anything less than a college-educated desk pilot is unacceptable. Like I posted earlier, it seems like folks don't mind signing up/applying for the higher paying jobs...they just don't want to WORK for those jobs. Or at them, once they've actually gotten them. I guess they don't mind getting or having the job, they just don't want to DO the job.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,518 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    Truer words are seldom posted here. Add to these, the attitude that being anything less than a college-educated desk pilot is unacceptable. Like I posted earlier, it seems like folks don't mind signing up/applying for the higher paying jobs...they just don't want to WORK for those jobs. Or at them, once they've actually gotten them. I guess they don't mind getting or having the job, they just don't want to DO the job.
    As a friend of mine once said, lots of people want to be thin or in shape, but very few want to get thin or in shape.

    I think the same thing can be said of success/wealth, depending on how you measure it.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • RugerFanRugerFan Senior Member Posts: 2,369 Senior Member
    Here's the thing about trade schools....


    I'm not sure folks in high school even KNOW what trade schools exist. From what I've seen lately, all the high school curricula is geared towards getting folks in college. I wonder if folks get stuck in low-paying jobs because some of them don't really know that there's other jobs out there.

    I agree.

    I do tell my 7th graders that not everyone has to go to college to make a good living. I tell them that a good electrician,plumber, hvac person can make really good $$.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    I used to tell my auto mechanics students if they weren't smart enough to repair cars for a living, they could always become doctors, lawyers, or school administrators. If one of the assistant principals happened to be monitoring my classroom at the time, I made it a point to include that comment in my lesson plan for the day!
    :devil:
    Jerry
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    You youngsters keep on working and paying into SS ya hear, my shootin hobby would suffer without it. :guns: :guns:

    I paid into it since I was 16 and so I am enjoying collecting it now.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member
    Here's the thing about trade schools....


    I'm not sure folks in high school even KNOW what trade schools exist. From what I've seen lately, all the high school curricula is geared towards getting folks in college. I wonder if folks get stuck in low-paying jobs because some of them don't really know that there's other jobs out there.

    That's a problem in some states, and like Alpha said, schools are incentivized to herd everybody to college. TN has some really good vocational/technical/trade schools and they are very much an advertised option to college. Chattanooga, TN has one of the newest and best schools for learning to run and program robots for the auto and other industries, and has a big waiting list. School is less than two years and graduates make BIG $$$ on graduation.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,518 Senior Member
    That is a very good point. High Schools are rated on how many of their graduates go to college. They have a built in incentive to funnel as many students towards a standard 4 year college even if that's not the best path for 75% of them. When you set up perverse incentives, you end up with perverse results.
    Yep. Odd that they rate them on how many go, and not how many actually finish....
    Overkill is underrated.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,611 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    You youngsters keep on working and paying into SS ya hear, my shootin hobby would suffer without it. :guns: :guns:

    I paid into it since I was 16 and so I am enjoying collecting it now.

    I started paying in at about the same age and I would gladly walk away from every last cent that I have paid in to date and agree not to collect in the future in order to not pay another cent into this failed system, going forward. Unfortunately, Uncle isn't going to give me that option.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,780 Senior Member
    I just feel so entitled :popcorn:
    Shut up-----KAREN; OK Cynthia
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,611 Senior Member
    You have worked hard all your professional life and earned what you are receiving now. You are the literal definition of entitled, because you actually earned what you are getting. Frankly, SS, medicare, etc. is the only 'true' (in my opinion) entitlement. The other programs are welfare.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,439 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    You youngsters keep on working and paying into SS ya hear, my shootin hobby would suffer without it. :guns: :guns:

    I paid into it since I was 16 and so I am enjoying collecting it now.

    I started paying in at 12. I'll still take Alphas plan. You might get more than you paid in, but a passbook savings account would beat the rate of return on SS.

    Of course, you would have to actually get the govt to give the money out. They are not legally required to do that.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,247 Senior Member
    RugerFan wrote: »
    I agree.

    I do tell my 7th graders that not everyone has to go to college to make a good living. I tell them that a good electrician,plumber, hvac person can make really good $$.

    The most successful self made millionaires I know went straight from high school to being a plumber. Retired about 25 years later a straight up millionaire, and now just screws around shooting squirrels and dabbling in buying/ selling/ flipping real estate.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I think a lot of folks are missing the original purpose of SS, Before they starting raiding the lock-box and using it as a social welfare program for those who never worked or paid into it. It is used as a disability payment source too which should be for those who are truly disabled and were WORKING and paying into it when they got disabled.

    It was designed for working people to have something to fall back on in retirement, in a lot of instances it is the only retirement they have. It also is good for women who were homemakers and didn't have a career of their own to draw a partial of their husbands SS while he is alive (about 50%) and then his SS when she is widowed.

    And even if you don't "Need" it you still are entitled to SS benefits at retirement age. Never meant to be an investment program.

    It does need to reformed, and maybe some options offered. I doubt if 25% of workers today could manage their money well enough to not pay in and invest in the market or would, they would need to be forced to and not able to touch it or make risky investments.

    Reality is here in FLA and many other states there are millions living on only SS, often no fault of their own, just the way life is. What would they do if there wasn't any SS?????

    Sure I'm a Baby Boomer, can't help that and fewer and fewer are in the work force paying for more and more retirees.

    Just the way it is and believe me there is no easy fix for SS and so suck it up because in the foreseeable future you will be paying what about 6% of your pay into SS, matched by your employer.

    Congress has raided SS (both parties) to pay for other stuff and now they (some of them) have the audacity to blame it on the recipients/future one and talk about cutting back on what they have paid into all their working lives or raising the age because they spent money they shouldn't have put their greedy hands on in the first place.

    I don't have the answers to the mess Congress has created with SS, but nobody is gonna get elected threatening to do away with/change drastically the only safety net American workers have.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Also, say you are retired and draw $1600 a month, you wife if not eligible for her own will draw a little under half of what you do, about $750 a month. that is $2350

    And if she worked (paid the same in as you) and collects, then it would be $3200 a month and so it goes.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,439 Senior Member
    Nope.

    SS was NEVER put together for disability. It was sold as a retirement supplement for people who WORKED for a avg retirement that was about 4 years, not spouses, not kids, not people who were disabled, and not a 30 year payment that was enough to live on. All that came later when a pile of money was laying there and politicians decided to start buying votes.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    I know people who quit school when they were 16 and learned carpentry, auto mechanics, plumbing, air conditioning, etc, from the ground up. The overwhelming majority of them owned their own homes by the time they were 25, and were in business for themselves by 35. They all did a lot of things wrong, and had numerous failures, but hard work and determination pulled them through all of it.

    That is the American dream, in my opinion, and generations of it have formed the backbone of this country. Higher education is a wonderful thing, for those who need it to accomplish what they want in life. But for those who want a simpler life, hard work at a fair wage, doing something they are good at, is also a rewarding life. Our kids need to understand that, and they need a realistic pathway to either type of life they are willing to work at, to achieve the success that they desire.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Nope.

    SS was NEVER put together for disability. It was sold as a retirement supplement for people who WORKED for a avg retirement that was about 4 years, not spouses, not kids, not people who were disabled, and not a 30 year payment that was enough to live on. All that came later when a pile of money was laying there and politicians decided to start buying votes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_%28United_States%29

    It has been modified over the years, but was never intended to be an investment program. And it is very complicated and I don't pretend to know all involved with it, but it is more complicated than just another tax.

    BTW, what other "Tax" are you getting a retirement "Return" on.........your federal/state/local/sales tax........NONE!
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I can tell you about early buy outs from the Army. They offered a payout for soldiers at XXX number years (I think around 14-18) to give them a lump sum or monthly pay out fer X number of years in lieu of staying in for 20 and getting a 50% basic pay retirement. Quite a few did that, got the money and guess what it was gone within a year and almost all regretted taking that deal.

    I heard the same from those in the private workforce too. People for the most part will not manage their money properly. If they ever got a SS lump sum payout it would be spent like there ain't no tomorrow by most. Sure some smart ones would do the right thing and those on here who say they would welcome their money back no with no SS benefits have the wherewithal may very well put it to good use, but I'm telling you most folks in America won't.

    Look at personal debt.....credit cards maxed out, living paycheck to paycheck, losing their jobs , crappy jobs, part time jobs..........the economy today............I just don't see anything better to replace SS with for most Americans. Fix it and keep it is all I can see.

    So yep you can gripe until the cows come home about paying into it and rightfully so about the way it works today, but guess what.. count on paying into the rest of your working lives.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,518 Senior Member
    So... because folks can't manage their finances well, we should rely on uncle sugar to spoon feed us what we put in? If you want to instill personal responsibility in folks, you've got to let them suffer the consequences for their poor choices.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    So... because folks can't manage their finances well, we should rely on uncle sugar to spoon feed us what we put in? If you want to instill personal responsibility in folks, you've got to let them suffer the consequences for their poor choices.

    You think the welfare lines are long now?

    Let them eat cake! For God's sake.


    Oh Boy who is gonna pay for that you/me in more other kinds of taxes..........how?

    They are still gonna need subsistence and at least SS is mandatory for contributions.

    Who will decide who is smart enough to manage their money? Is that like voting and a test should be given at the polls like Jim Crow laws?

    You are getting a "Return" of sorts on your SS taxes, maybe not what you think you should, but it is better than nothing. Most of you younger people are using the assumption you will pay and not get anything when you retire when your time comes. Not true.

    OK since some of you think you are so savvy with money, refuse your SS because you invested so wisely your whole life and don't need it, give it to charity.

    Some of the solutions being bandied about are actually worse than the current SS we already have.

    You younger folks sometimes think you have perfect solutions to life's problems, trust me you do not. If it were as simple as replacing SS with a 401K like investments it would have been done a long long time ago.

    Sounds like many are bitter about paying in, get over it, it ain't gonna change any time soon, if ever.

    I think radical changes to it now would do more harm than good.

    Oh, we sometimes grumbled a little about what is that deduction on my pay-stub for, told what and why and accepted it for what it was. Nothing like the whining I hear today, just like those commercials on TV "It's My Money And I Want It Now............."
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,072 Senior Member
    So... because folks can't manage their finances well, we should rely on uncle sugar to spoon feed us what we put in? If you want to instill personal responsibility in folks, you've got to let them suffer the consequences for their poor choices.

    While in theory that sounds logical and I totally agree with you, BUT. What will happen is that people will blow what they get and when the time comes will be standing with their hands out looking for more and our elected officials will say something like" we can not let them starve, or live on the streets" and it will start all over again.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    You gotta have money to make money...........so how many folks have much to invest these days...you think if MOST had an extra 6% in their NET Pay they would actually put it in an investment when they can barely make it on what they bring home now? Time for a reality check.

    And who is to say their investments in the market will actually make them money over the long run or what happens if another crash/big recession hits at their retirement?

    And what pitiful returns are there now on the safer Govt Bonds? Savings accts/CDs.??????????????
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    While in theory that sounds logical and I totally agree with you, BUT. What will happen is that people will blow what they get and when the time comes will be standing with their hands out looking for more and our elected officials will say something like" we can not let them starve, or live on the streets" and it will start all over again.

    EXACTLY
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
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