Feedback on recent happening appreciated.

Cheetoh734Cheetoh734 Senior MemberPosts: 714 Senior Member
So my co-worker's husband was at the library last week and was involved in an incident that I thought was worth sharing. The second reason I am sharing the incident is that some friends of theirs are doing a bit of armchair quarterbacking, talking about he "should have" handled the situation and the like. Feedback from those more qualified than me would be appreciated.

A little backstory is that my co-worker's husband is a cancer survivor and has had a large portion of his jaw and facial structure removed, some of it has been replaced with titanium but he has only about half of his jaw left. He is still in recovery and is not currently working which is why he was at the library on a weekday. He is also a CPL holder and was carrying IWB at the time of the incident.

He was at the library last Friday when a younger couple a few tables over began arguing. What appeared to be a late teen/early twenties african american male and a similarly aged Caucasian female were verbally arguing. Soon after the male, splashed a cup of water on the girl and then began slapping her. He then grabbed her by her hair and threw her to the ground and was on her slapping her in the face. The other people in the library weren't doing anything at this point. He stepped in and said "i think its time for you to go" to the male. Both parties stood up and he placed himself in between the two of them and repeated that it was time for the male to leave. At this point the male became angry with him and began punching him in the face. The husband did not fight back but put his arm and one leg out to try and maintain distance between himself and the male. At some point the two of them fell over and the husband's pistol was partially exposed. The male then got up and ran out of the library before the Police arrived. The Police took his statement. As far as we know the male was not apprehended. The husband never drew his firearm or swung back at the male. He has several decent cuts on his face, especially where the skin is directly over the titanium. He had a black eye bad enough that is was swollen shut by friday night.

It was my opinion that the husband handled the situation as best as he possibly could, and I commended him for remaining in control the whole time without risking lives or serious legal ramifications. I was curious what your opinions are.

Some of the people they know are saying that he should have drawn or even fired. He seems to be having a little self doubt at this point, I don't know that I'll show him this but I am curious your thoughts.

Thanks in advance.

Replies

  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    I think he did OK. I would not draw a weapon before I was convinced that someone was in danger of being killed or maimed, nor would I stand by and watch someone being bullied, excessively - especially a woman.
  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,078 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I think he did OK. I would not draw a weapon before I was convinced that someone was in danger of being killed or maimed, nor would I stand by and watch someone being bullied, excessively - especially a woman.

    How would you know in this instance that his slap wouldn't turn to a solid punch to her temple or throat? I commend him for standing up to him, not sure I wouldn't have moved more aggressively had his violence turned to me. After all, if this happened on the street or in a parking garage, would you not get distance by taking your CW out? I know I would.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,419 Senior Member
    Another situation where the simple presence of a weapon served to de-escalate a confrontation. The attacker probably had some serious second thoughts about proceeding when he realized a gun was available- - - -and he probably had a sudden urge to find a bathroom, as well! Most cowards and/or bullies have no interest in pressing on when there's a possibility of serious pushback. Your friend would have been entirely justified in drawing, and possibly firing, just to protect himself from further injury, particularly since he was being struck around the face on the site of the surgery. He showed a lot more restraint than I might have, had someone been trying to re-injure the ankle I had rebuilt after my bike wreck!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    Different situation. Apparently this guy took the minimum amount of aggressive action, in a situation that was still uncertain as to the amount of violence the guy was willing to use. Yes, it could have escalated instantly and left him without the option of using his weapon. But, that was the chance he chose to take, and the situation was resolved without using excessive force. That is not a bad outcome for a situation like this, and I can't fault his judgement, even though he took a big risk.

    EDIT: This post is in response to pjames.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    A very brave man.
    No he shouldn't have drawn his weapon. If I were in his condition I would not have even done as much. Would have called the police instead.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,664 Senior Member
    early wrote: »
    A very brave man.
    No he shouldn't have drawn his weapon. If I were in his condition I would not have even done as much. Would have called the police instead.

    :agree:
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,729 Senior Member
    Only thing I would have done differently was to call 911 before asking the dirtbag to leave. The request to leave would be better punctuated with "cops are on the way. I'd leave if I were you."

    If the chick stayed, then refer her to a women's shelter.

    All in all, I would say he handled it quite well. Good on him.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    No issues with the way he handled it....calling the police before intervening would have been a good idea though. What gets me is that none of the others in the library got involved....the world is full of sheep...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Cheetoh734Cheetoh734 Senior Member Posts: 714 Senior Member
    A quick update. This afternoon my co-worker's husband was at the local Fred Meyer and ran across the guy. He called the Police and she just texted me to say the guy had been arrested and charged with assault & battery. That was pretty surprising considering this happened in Renton which is one of the larger suburbs of Seattle. All is well that ends well I guess. He will have to go to the police station to identify the guy later I'm told.

    Thanks for your feedback guys.
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,375 Senior Member
    Hard to say what the best course of action would have been, but I'm thinking, picking up a chair (it was the Library) and crashing it over the guys head while he was slapping the girl seems appropriate.
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Hard to say what the best course of action would have been, but I'm thinking, picking up a chair (it was the Library) and crashing it over the guys head while he was slapping the girl seems appropriate.

    That's bar room brawl sop.
    A library, has big books :yesno:
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,375 Senior Member
    I ended a fight back in high school doing it. Worked like a charm. Thought I'd killed the guy...but he had a hard head.
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,845 Senior Member
    Sitting here safely at my computer, the old Polish ( :uhm: ) proverb, "Not my Monkeys, not my Circus" comes to mind (IOW stay the hell out of it) However, knowing myself & seeing it happening, I probably wouldn't be able to.

    I'm not so sure I'd stand by passively and take a butt whoopin' once I did get involved though :nono:

    By and large, I guess your friend's husband did "okay" though
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    The butt hole who was abusing his GF ran away, didn't she give his name to the police when they showed up. And he could (may have by now) been charged with battery on her too????

    I think he handled it well. Dunno what I would have done, probably intervened in one fashion or another. I hope guy makes a full recovery and the GF finds something better than that dirtball to be with.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Cheetoh734Cheetoh734 Senior Member Posts: 714 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    The butt hole who was abusing his GF ran away, didn't she give his name to the police when they showed up. And he could (may have by now) been charged with battery on her too????

    I think he handled it well. Dunno what I would have done, probably intervened in one fashion or another. I hope guy makes a full recovery and the GF finds something better than that dirtball to be with.

    According to what I was told, the girl left soon after the guy. The only one that stuck around was the husband and other people at the library. I think the reason they were able to charge the guy later was that the husband was willing to identify him. I'm still a little shocked that they actually arrested the guy though, I thought that was pretty cool.
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    I wouldn't have been punched more than once before returning in kind. I think calling the po-po before intervening would be a good idea. Also would not draw my gun unless the guy had a weapon too, or if he just could not be otherwise persuaded to discontinue his aggression.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,458 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Sitting here safely at my computer, the old Polish ( :uhm: ) proverb, "Not my Monkeys, not my Circus" comes to mind (IOW stay the hell out of it) However, knowing myself & seeing it happening, I probably wouldn't be able to.

    I'm not so sure I'd stand by passively and take a butt whoopin' once I did get involved though :nono:

    By and large, I guess your friend's husband did "okay" though

    Same here...knowing you shouldn't and not doing it are two different things. I would want somebody to step in if that were my daughter, so that is most likely what would be going through my mind. Like Bobby, I don't think I would have waited to be hit more than once to strike back, but sometimes waiting for the first hit is waiting two hits too long...

    All in all, it's easy to armchair quarterback this, but much harder to figure things out as they happen...I think he done good.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    The moment one decides to draw a weapon is entirely subjective. He did what he decided he should do.

    No fault in that.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Vic's ViewpointVic's Viewpoint Senior Member Posts: 1,126 Senior Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    I wouldn't have been punched more than once before returning in kind. I think calling the po-po before intervening would be a good idea. Also would not draw my gun unless the guy had a weapon too, or if he just could not be otherwise persuaded to discontinue his aggression.

    What if he's a full head taller than you, twice as mean as you ever were, and a sour drunk into the mix. How much provocation must John Q endure before clearing leather and ending the confrontation by either threat or by action? No one wants to find himself in more trouble than the bad guy just for defusing a situation by the presentation of a weapon. That's what I hate about MD: unless bad guy is actively in the process of carving you up, you'd better not brandish or even reveal. All that goblin has to say to the police is that you intimidated him by revealing, and now you're up the creek, guilty until proven innocent, and you just may never see your weapon again, regardless of the outcome of any hearings or trials. Welcome to -for-brains MD, where "they" have rights and you don't.
    Member formerly known as "vlafrank."
  • softwarejanitorsoftwarejanitor Member Posts: 241 Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Only thing I would have done differently was to call 911 before asking the dirtbag to leave. The request to leave would be better punctuated with "cops are on the way. I'd leave if I were you."

    If the chick stayed, then refer her to a women's shelter.

    All in all, I would say he handled it quite well. Good on him.

    I agree completely... however in the heat of the moment I know that getting on my phone isn't always the first thing that comes to mind. It probably should be though.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,845 Senior Member
    Something that came to mind as I was re-reading this thread, not knowing the local laws, would it have been legal for him to have drawn, since he interjected himself into the situation?

    Not trying to be a jerk, am actually curious, knowing how varied laws concerning that can be in different jurisdictions :uhm:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,557 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    This is a good question. Missouri says that scumbag is bought and paid for. I can use my weapon to prevent bodily harm to myself or someone else. The only sticking point would be....having a weapon in a public library. Here, you "can't". Can't in quotes because even though the sign says you can't, the only thing they can do is ask you to leave if they see it. If you do, fine. If not, you could get charged with trespassing. But in second thought, that may be considered (by CCW law) a government building.


    As to what I would have done other than call the police, I simply don't know.
    And this sounds cold and probably is, but if the woman still hangs around this guy after this, (and she probably will) she ain't too bright. And gets no sympathy from me.

    Yep. Saw a couple guys get in fights trying to protect a wo.man from her boyfriend/husbands public beat down, only to find the woman on their back trying to claw their eyes out because they were hitting their boyfriend/husband
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,854 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    Yep. Saw a couple guys get in fights trying to protect a wo.man from her boyfriend/husbands public beat down, only to find the woman on their back trying to claw their eyes out because they were hitting their boyfriend/husband

    Since I started reading this I was thinking of that too. Sometimes women will side with their lover even if he's beating her senseless and threatening her life.

    It's no wonder people don't want to get involved.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,845 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I can use my weapon to prevent bodily harm to myself or someone else.
    Same here, but I know different states have differing requirements and do not claim to know the laws of any other state.
    (I just hope I don't find myself involved in something in a state with a "duty to retreat" law)
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • bowserbbowserb Member Posts: 277 Member
    I have to say that dialing 911 is the first thing I would do, witnessing what was described. I don't know after that. On the 911 call you describe the perp and the victim, and ideally describe yourself (middle aged white male in a blue shirt and khaki's) and that you're trying to stay out of it but it looks pretty one sided and brutal. In the event that drawing your gun becomes what you consider necessary, you have at least established that you are the witness and good guy. As Massad Ayoob points out, the party who calls the police first is the one who gets to say who the bad guy is.
    "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history." - Ayn Rand
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I think he did well.

    A similar thing happened to me in Southern Maryland, a man unknown to me, ran over to a Co-worker I was conversing with, and began to choke her badly.

    I did not want to draw my sidearm on him,
    So I yelled at him to cease and desist.

    I yelled that I could see what he was doing to her etc, and he dropped her and ran back in inside his mobile home and hid, he was arrested by Deputies a bit later.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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