Open Carry...Lesson Delivered

JayhawkerJayhawker ModeratorPosts: 14,825 Senior Member
I have a police officer friend that I have known for many years who teaches CPL classes, Officer Survival etc. It was during a class "Street Survival for EMS personnel" that this occurred. One of his students arrived in class open carrying which Chuck took as an opportunity for a teachable moment. After chatting with the guy about the wisdom of walking around with his gun hanging out for the entire world to see, the guy stated that "It was his right and within the law" Chuck did not disagree, Then he advised the guy that sometime during that 8 hour class, he was going to take his gun from him....and even with the warning.... proceeded to do it 16 TIMES during that class. At last report the guy no longer thinks that open carrying is such a great idea...
Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
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Replies

  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,656 Senior Member
    :applause:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,549 Senior Member
    Open carry advocates generally respond by saying that there has been little evidence that this has been a problem. I think there just hasn't been enough opportunities for smash and grab types to really get interested in it.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,253 Senior Member
    "My shirt can't talk, so it doesn't say anything- - - - -can you read?"

    I rode a few Patriot Guard funeral missions that partnered with the "Iron Order" club, the bunch of JBT motorcycle riders who are mostly off-duty cops. Most of them open carry. Good for them, but it makes them look like a bunch of arrogant ****!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,660 Senior Member
    He grabbed and grappled for a loaded gun 16 times in a populated classroom? While that was an interesting example, I find that dangerous as all getout.

    BTW, I am someone that supports open carry being legal, but thinks it should only be practiced when absolutely needed. Not just because I can
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Open carry in NC is not illegal, there are no laws on the books saying you can't except for things like a listing of places where guns are not permitted (government buildings, schools etc), going to the terror of the public charge criteria, etc. BUT the is no laws saying you can either. Our CHP laws state what we LEGALLY are allowed to do so we are protected by law from neverous nelly so, overzealous LEOs and others when we carry concealed.

    Prime example, we are allowed to carry concealed in a playground area with kids running around, a Chester watch area for sure. I make a slip and my carry is seen ... and some nervous nelly calls the local popo who roll up and approach me. I show my CHP, they acknowledge it and go tell the nelly I'm legal to do so and leave. Now switch it to somebody OCing and you have a longer more drawn out thing where the LEOs will likely do a lot more than just ask a question or 2 and go tell the nelly I am okay. I can see them trying to ID me, possibly run my handgun's serial number, ask way more questions of "why, who, what for, etc" am I carrying on a playground before they tell the nelly I am allowed. My CHP protects me with statue laws not case law (based on written law vs past trial results).

    Don't get me wrong, I am not against OCing (and I do every so often) but I prefer to carry concealed and what others don't know or need to know stays my business.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,802 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    Open carry in NC is not illegal, there are no laws on the books saying you can't except for things like a listing of places where guns are not permitted (government buildings, schools etc), going to the terror of the public charge criteria, etc. BUT the is no laws saying you can either. Our CHP laws state what we LEGALLY are allowed to do so we are protected by law from neverous nelly so, overzealous LEOs and others when we carry concealed.

    Prime example, we are allowed to carry concealed in a playground area with kids running around, a Chester watch area for sure. I make a slip and my carry is seen ... and some nervous nelly calls the local popo who roll up and approach me. I show my CHP, they acknowledge it and go tell the nelly I'm legal to do so and leave. Now switch it to somebody OCing and you have a longer more drawn out thing where the LEOs will likely do a lot more than just ask a question or 2 and go tell the nelly I am okay. I can see them trying to ID me, possibly run my handgun's serial number, ask way more questions of "why, who, what for, etc" am I carrying on a playground before they tell the nelly I am allowed. My CHP protects me with statue laws not case law (based on written law vs past trial results).

    Don't get me wrong, I am not against OCing (and I do every so often) but I prefer to carry concealed and what others don't know or need to know stays my business.

    Statute law trumps Case law. Only problem is you may have to take your case to an appeals court, which will cost you more money than you may have.

    This is one of the big reasons for having appeals courts, that is, a bad verdict due to a judge not knowing the law and proper court procedure or more likely not caring and betting on you not appealing the decision.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    Statute law trumps Case law. Only problem is you may have to take your case to an appeals court, which will cost you more money than you may have.

    This is one of the big reasons for having appeals courts, that is, a bad verdict due to a judge not knowing the law and proper court procedure or more likely not caring and betting on you not appealing the decision.

    Exactly, and that is why I have most state's xxxxx.gov website with their current statues regarding concealed carry on my smart phone and when in that state printed out in my vehicle (I do not just rely on the concealed carry websites alone) so I can show any LEO his/her state's statues regarding Concealed Carry ... you can't do that with OC in some states. Now there are states like say Texas where the legislature actually took the time to write laws regarding OC and citizens are thus protected by those written statues vs "well based on Charlotte, NC vs John Doe, we feel ..." BS charges some DA and judge throw at an OCer.

    Again don't get me wrong and I think there are tooooooooo many laws on the books but in this case I like having statues to fall back on and say that I am on the correct side of the law where, when, what, how, etc I carry.

    Oh yeah, here's a stupid clause in NC's Self Defense statues ... if you are in violation of the law you actually lose your right to use deadly force in protection of you and yours. In other words if you violate the law by carrying concealed where it is illegal by law (government buildings, universities , hospitals, etc) or other gun free zones and use deadly force to stop an attack you could be charged up to man slaughter ... not that you would BUT could.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,825 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    He grabbed and grappled for a loaded gun 16 times in a populated classroom? While that was an interesting example, I find that dangerous as all getout.

    BTW, I am someone that supports open carry being legal, but thinks it should only be practiced when absolutely needed. Not just because I can

    He requested that the guy unload his gun for the duration of the class...the guy complied because he didn't believe Chuck could do it...No grappling involved...he simply removed it from the holster while the guy was distracted.

    In my world there is a legitimate place for open carry....hunting, pasture patrol, etc...but open carrying in the mall or other "crowded" environments is just asking for trouble...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,465 Senior Member
    Every time I think I'd like to try it, I just end up saying, "Not worth the trouble".
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Just watch the You Tube encounters between LE and OC, the OC refuse to present ID and oftentimes behave inappropriately.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,656 Senior Member
    The time I OC in public vs the time I carry concealed is probably close to 0.05% OC to 99.95% CC.

    The main times I OC is when I am coming back from the field (hunting, working on green fields etc) where I'm mainly carrying for protection against snakes and other 2 & 4 legged vermin in the field, and then have to stop and get something to eat/drink/grab something from the store and I'm not in the mood to go to the trouble to take the holster off my belt just for the quick errand before I would have to put it back on and go back to what I was doing.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,345 Senior Member
    An OCer came in the store the other day. I was planning on approaching and asking about his sidearm preference (after a second look, M&P...not sure of caliber) but I saw he was wearing a Trump hat, so I walked the other way! :jester:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 10,717 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    An OCer came in the store the other day. I was planning on approaching and asking about his sidearm preference (after a second look, M&P...not sure of caliber) but I saw he was wearing a Trump hat, so I walked the other way! :jester:

    Should have smacked him in the head with a can of baked beans and had a better look:jester:, you had two good reasons to do this.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ArmoredmanArmoredman Member Posts: 343 Member
    I think there just hasn't been enough opportunities for smash and grab types to really get interested in it.
    Hmm, I think not - we've been doing open carry for over 100 years in Arizona, think that MIGHT be enough time to do a "study". I generally only open carry in uniform, but it's rather expected. CCW is preferred for both surprise and to avoid upsetting the winter visitors from Chicago, New Jersey, and other "safe zones". If you do open carry regularly, I highly recommend you invest in a snatch resistant holster and learn/practice weapon retention. Also, another thing most OC overlook - dress professionally. Dress well, carry a professional looking sidearm in professional looking gear. If you look like a bag of dirty rags with a Bryco in some floppy Rhino nylon rig, you will garner more negative attention than, say, if dressed well with a CZ P-09 in a bison hide High Noon holster. Just sayin'. :wink:
  • JeffnBamaJeffnBama Member Posts: 204 Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Just watch the You Tube encounters between LE and OC, the OC refuse to present ID and oftentimes behave inappropriately.
    I may have seen the Video, Police are called for two Women were OC at Wally Mart. LEO found out they did on purpose for Video , he was not amused especially when a smart remark was made about his fellow Officer having a shotgun
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    JeffnBama wrote: »
    I may have seen the Video, Police are called for two Women were OC at Wally Mart. LEO found out they did on purpose for Video , he was not amused especially when a smart remark was made about his fellow Officer having a shotgun

    There was a few nutters in Portland Oregon open carrying an AR-15, and the Portland Police were very nice and professional, only asked to see a CC permit, and they kept on blah blah blah, throughout the encounter the Police were calm but insistent and finally the moaxes showed their CC permits, problem as the Officers said is people calling 911 every 5 minutes tying up Police resources and I agreed with that point of view.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51dTbqLnSaU

    **************************************

    That is My main reason not to open carry, another is, I was getting out of my truck last month and a women commented, look at old white boy packin a Gone !
    The other responded, what you expect ???
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,825 Senior Member
    I don't much care either way, however, i do believe that the person who open carries CANNOT walk around clueless (Condition Whilte) and really needs to consider using a holster with good retention properties....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I agree, and it is prudent not to annoy local law enforcement too, the dog / nads cause I can reasoning to open carry....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,345 Senior Member
    I have no problem with OC, and I believe requiring a permit (or NN's CCW badge :jester:) for CC is unconstitutional...but I will say this: It seems to me that the percentage of 'in your face' types is higher in the OC crowd, though that may simply be due to the fact that folks acting similarly while CCing appear to be just plain asses, as opposed to an ass with a gun. For the dude in our store the other day, he dressed more or less 'professionally', he obviously was not (visibly) a dirtbag...can't comment on the retention capabilities of his rig, but from a distance it appeared to be a decent setup.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,549 Senior Member
    Armoredman wrote: »
    Hmm, I think not - we've been doing open carry for over 100 years in Arizona, think that MIGHT be enough time to do a "study".

    I was speaking in general terms, including the whole country. Arizona may not be typical, since it has always been a place people move to for greater freedom from over-reaching government.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,887 Senior Member
    For the most part, OC is legal here; don't see it much and when I do, it usually is by someone dressed relatively exotic as
    compared to the norm for this area. It is almost as if they want people to notice them and see their gun.

    The above excludes those in or looking like they are headed for some wild lands area.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 10,717 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    I have no problem with OC, and I believe requiring a permit (or NN's CCW badge :jester:) for CC is unconstitutional...but I will say this: It seems to me that the percentage of 'in your face' types is higher in the OC crowd, though that may simply be due to the fact that folks acting similarly while CCing appear to be just plain asses, as opposed to an ass with a gun. For the dude in our store the other day, he dressed more or less 'professionally', he obviously was not (visibly) a dirtbag...can't comment on the retention capabilities of his rig, but from a distance it appeared to be a decent setup.

    Still, one wiley grocery store employee with a can of baked beans and the OC'er would be looking for his gun.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,345 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Still, one wiley grocery store employee with a can of baked beans and the OC'er would be looking for his gun.


    Nobody that works there would try to take his gun without him giving reason. Once he gives reason, they won't do it then either. I won't speak for customers.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 10,717 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    Nobody that works there would try to take his gun without him giving reason. Once he gives reason, they won't do it then either. I won't speak for customers.

    I am just saying it is a bad idea to open carry in general, a grocery store is just one place that is loaded with potential things that would assist a less ethical person in relieving him of his gun, someone more educated in such things, like yourself, it would be a simple thing to take his gun, better to keep it concealed.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,715 Senior Member
    In TN I can open carry with my concealed carry permit...............but I'm not stupid enough to do that. Aside from being disarmed while distracted, I don't like unwanted attention from a possibly trigger happy local cop pointing a pistol at me with his finger on the trigger. Not worth that, at all, in either situation.

    Personally, I find it much more comfortable, and safe, to just fly under the radar and look like a sheep until it's time not to be a sheep. I don't have a problem with those that do open carry, and I've seen a few here, but they sure don't seem to have a lot of situational awareness when doing so. In places where open carry is the only legal option I sure hope that people doing so watch their blind spots carefully on an ongoing basis; kind of like driving, those rear view mirrors can come in handy to avoid problems.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • ArmoredmanArmoredman Member Posts: 343 Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Still, one wiley grocery store employee with a can of baked beans and the OC'er would be looking for his gun.

    I hear this time and time again from people who are against open carry. I open carried LEGALLY from the time I was 16 to 1994 when we had CCW finally signed into law. Many of my like minded friends also open carried during this time period which covers well over a decade. Not once did any of us get "bonked on the head with a can of baked beans and relieved of our firearm." The closest we came to that was OC'ing in Park Mall and after FOUR HOURS a security guard with a night stick ordered me and my friend to leave. He reached out to take my friend's Smith and Wesson Model 28 out of his holster and stopped only when he was informed that attempted theft of a firearm might have some negative consequences. We did follow the law and left the area immediately, but it wasn't until AFTER that that they put of visible signs. :wink: No, quite often the times you hear about gun snatches are law enforcement with snatch resistant holsters, because they HAVE to get down and dirty grappling with the thugs, and this can and does lead to attempted gun grabs like the infamous Thug Brown case, shot by the police officer he tried to murder with his own firearm.
    I believe that 90% of people who re adamantly against open carry are from places where it hasn't been the norm for many decades, so they are educated by cultural norms to believe guns in the open are bad. That's fine, no issues, but as I said, in our little corner of the universe, Free AZ is a pretty good experiment in both open carry and Constitutional Carry and how well they work in real life. Still have a better homicide rate in Phoenix than Detroit, Chicago or L.A. :cool:
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 10,717 Senior Member
    I am not against open carry. I don't think just because you have not had your gun snatched from your person validates open carry, just because something has not happened does not mean you should not plan for the worst, I still change batteries in my smoke alarm and maintain my fire extinguisher even though I have never had a house fire. Folks that carry everyday for their jobs are mandated to use certain retention holsters and receive training for retention, the average citizen trains sparingly IMHO. I have lived rurally and small town most of my life, firearms are common in the areas I have lived, open carry would not draw much attention, I assume where you live has that going for it. I think CC is much better option in a public space, people are creatures of habit, they buy groceries at the same place on the same day, people can be patterned, not everyone in the Mall is a nut job, all nut jobs need to buy groceries, I prefer to fly under the radar just in case, YMMV.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,345 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    I think CC is much better option in a public space, people are creatures of habit, they buy groceries at the same place on the same day, people can be patterned, not everyone in the Mall is a nut job, all nut jobs need to buy groceries, I prefer to fly under the radar just in case, YMMV.


    I'm right there with you, Tennmike and others. I have no problem with somebody else OCing, but I don't think I would have a lot of use for it. Maybe like Wambli mentioned, on the way home from the range or some such...I just thought it was interesting, the dude OCing and wearing a slogan hat. Might as well make two statements instead of just one, right? :tooth:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • ArmoredmanArmoredman Member Posts: 343 Member
    Folks that carry everyday for their jobs are mandated to use certain retention holsters and receive training

    A nice wish, not as true as it should be. You know Fobus plastic holsters? I know a major agency that ISSUES that junk. Gah.
    I don't think just because you have not had your gun snatched from your person validates open carry, just because something has not happened does not mean you should not plan for the worst

    I have had weapon retention training, required to take it every year. However, I think you missed the point I made - I don't hear of it happening out here. I might have missed a report once in a while, but most times it's cops getting guns snatched, not civvies. I HAVE seen some guys who had either rigs so badly made/positioned that a child could have disarmed them, or so deep in Condition White that they could have been easily "taken out", not arguing that point whatsoever. Doesn't change the point - if it was so commonplace, I think we'd hear a heck of a lot more about it than we do, especially with a hostile new media. I'm going to bow out of this one because I'm making the case for academic purposes only - I conceal 99% of the time because I prefer to blend in as well. I just don't like OC people who AREN'T causing hate and discontent getting a bad rap.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 10,717 Senior Member
    Armoredman wrote: »
    A nice wish, not as true as it should be. You know Fobus plastic holsters? I know a major agency that ISSUES that junk. Gah.



    I have had weapon retention training, required to take it every year. However, I think you missed the point I made - I don't hear of it happening out here. I might have missed a report once in a while, but most times it's cops getting guns snatched, not civvies. I HAVE seen some guys who had either rigs so badly made/positioned that a child could have disarmed them, or so deep in Condition White that they could have been easily "taken out", not arguing that point whatsoever. Doesn't change the point - if it was so commonplace, I think we'd hear a heck of a lot more about it than we do, especially with a hostile new media. I'm going to bow out of this one because I'm making the case for academic purposes only - I conceal 99% of the time because I prefer to blend in as well. I just don't like OC people who AREN'T causing hate and discontent getting a bad rap.

    :beer:
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
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