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Science Day @ Range - Cartridge Comparison.

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  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,834 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    You know one of them Win 94 levers in .410 loaded with slugs would be good little Thumper too.

    Of course not better than a 20 or 12, but what is important is to have a gun and be able to hit with it.


    Yeah, but the Model 94 sure ain't cheap. If I went with a lever gun for her, I'd go with a short Rossi R92 in .45 Colt with some softer loads.

    A 12 & 20 gauge are a little stout and unwieldy for her.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Thanks to the often disparaged firm of Taurus, there is a large selection of differnt types of ammunition if those results leave you wanting. A 40 caliber hole remains lethal either way.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I wuz thunking back to when they came out. I imagine they are crazy $$$ these days.

    Your mom will sure be able to put a hurt on a BG with the .22 Mag and .410

    You know a Ruger 10/22 with a 25 rd mag or even the standard 10 rd rotary mag and loaded with CCI Mini-mag HPs would be ideal for a lot of folks.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,834 Senior Member
    early wrote: »
    Thanks to the often disparaged firm of Taurus, there is a large selection of differnt types of ammunition if those results leave you wanting. A 40 caliber hole remains lethal either way.

    I think most of the ammo marketed for the .410 revolvers out there is rediculous window dressing to get people's money. Disks? Multiple size pellets? If you notice, it all looks good on paper targets and gel. Actual terminal performance.........I'm speculative as to its results from a snub nosed revolver.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I think most of the ammo marketed for the .410 revolvers out there is rediculous window dressing to get people's money. Disks? Multiple size pellets? If you notice, it all looks good on paper targets and gel. Actual terminal performance.........I'm speculative as to its results from a snub nosed revolver.

    I completely understand.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 13,473 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Yeah, but the Model 94 sure ain't cheap. If I went with a lever gun for her, I'd go with a short Rossi R92 in .45 Colt with some softer loads.

    A 12 & 20 gauge are a little stout and unwieldy for her.

    You have a safe full of guns, let mom pick.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,834 Senior Member
    Gun & Ammo
    G23 .40 S&W w/ 4.5" Barrel
    180gr XTP @ 1,138 fps

    Test
    Penetration Test w/ Water Jugs @ 7 Yards
    Accuracy @ 25 Yards

    Video
    http://vid26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/lovinmycaitlynn/Shooting/DDC275CB-F71C-4724-9DB6-E021DF058595_zps1jomggbd.mp4

    Jugs
    .40%20SW%20180gr%20XTP%20%201138%20fps%202_zps5qlugusd.jpg

    The hydrostatic results were not as dramatic as others. But, it's not traveling as fast either. The bullet DID however penetrate 4 jugs and came to rest in the bottom of the fourth without touching the back that I can tell.

    Recovered Bullet
    .40%20SW%20180gr%20XTP%20%201138%20fps%2012_zpsk4mr65wg.jpg

    .40%20SW%20180gr%20XTP%20%201138%20fps%2011_zpsixk2zobn.jpg

    The bullet fully expanded in the water and retained 178gr of it's original 180gr weight.

    Accuracy @ 25yrds
    .40%20SW%20180gr%20XTP%20%201138%20fps%2013_zpshi10zzyh.jpg

    This was not an accuracy work up. I just went straight out of the book and chose one charge and seat depth to help Hondo out. I do not intend to continue further testing for accuracy as I do not intend to load for the .40 S&W at this time. The load shows potential in accuracy except I likely shanked the flyer.

    This test was to see if the 180gr XTP would perform in both expansion and penetration at .40 S&W velocities. I think it did well as both were as good or better than other bullets tested in that velocity threshold.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Thats excellent weight retention.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • Hondo341Hondo341 Member Posts: 448 Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Gun & Ammo
    G23 .40 S&W w/ 4.5" Barrel
    180gr XTP @ 1,138 fps

    Test
    Penetration Test w/ Water Jugs @ 7 Yards
    Accuracy @ 25 Yards

    Video
    http://vid26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/lovinmycaitlynn/Shooting/DDC275CB-F71C-4724-9DB6-E021DF058595_zps1jomggbd.mp4

    Jugs
    .40%20SW%20180gr%20XTP%20%201138%20fps%202_zps5qlugusd.jpg

    The hydrostatic results were not as dramatic as others. But, it's not traveling as fast either. The bullet DID however penetrate 4 jugs and came to rest in the bottom of the fourth without touching the back that I can tell.

    Recovered Bullet
    .40%20SW%20180gr%20XTP%20%201138%20fps%2012_zpsk4mr65wg.jpg

    .40%20SW%20180gr%20XTP%20%201138%20fps%2011_zpsixk2zobn.jpg

    The bullet fully expanded in the water and retained 178gr of it's original 180gr weight.

    Accuracy @ 25yrds
    .40%20SW%20180gr%20XTP%20%201138%20fps%2013_zpshi10zzyh.jpg

    This was not an accuracy work up. I just went straight out of the book and chose one charge and seat depth to help Hondo out. I do not intend to continue further testing for accuracy as I do not intend to load for the .40 S&W at this time. The load shows potential in accuracy except I likely shanked the flyer.

    This test was to see if the 180gr XTP would perform in both expansion and penetration at .40 S&W velocities. I think it did well as both were as good or better than other bullets tested in that velocity threshold.

    That is really helpful Zee. I will load accordingly and have a decent hog/deer load if a shot presents itself. Like Early said, that is some nice weight retention there. When my components arrive(delayed by hurricane) I will load some up. I got my new adjustable Williams Firesights for my G22 as well. Will be able to regulate them both. Thanks again Zee.
    "People are responsible to play a role in their own safety." Sheriff David Clarke 2016
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,572 Senior Member
    I'll recommend to my dad that he give those a shot; he has a 23. His is standard issue, OEM barrel; any idea if there would be any substantial difference in performance from the original length barrel? (besides a theoretical slight drop in velocity)
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • Hondo341Hondo341 Member Posts: 448 Member
    I will be using my stock barrel to begin with. I want to see what it will do. I would imagine the velocity loss would no be all that much....but it will be present.
    "People are responsible to play a role in their own safety." Sheriff David Clarke 2016
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,834 Senior Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    I'll recommend to my dad that he give those a shot; he has a 23. His is standard issue, OEM barrel; any idea if there would be any substantial difference in performance from the original length barrel? (besides a theoretical slight drop in velocity)

    Only 1/2" difference in barrel length. Shouldn't be too much difference in velocity. At most, maybe 50 fps just because of the difference in barrel length and rifling. But, that would be extreme I think.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,834 Senior Member
    Gun & Ammo
    Perdition.40 S&W w/ 4.5" Barrel
    165gr Winchester "T" Series @ 1,208 fps

    Test
    Penetration Test w/ Water Jugs @ 7 Yards
    Accuracy @ 25 Yards

    Video
    http://vid26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/lovinmycaitlynn/Shooting/D9B912EC-B740-4DED-8A86-3B27E2E66FF2_zps9nj8lcqd.mp4

    Jugs
    DE5C6F88-67C9-4DA3-B23D-2BF5ABB80117_zpso5yifmca.jpg

    The bullet penetrated 3 jugs. Denting the back of the third and coming to rest in the bottom.

    Recovered Bullet

    17EFBC8F-C2E0-47A9-B3AE-F12D8C8114B1_zpsbt40dkhx.jpg

    SW%20165%20Winchester%20T%20Series%201208%20fps%201_zpso63qtywi.jpg

    SW%20165%20Winchester%20T%20Series%201208%20fps%202_zpsava93myx.jpg

    Accuracy @ 25yrds
    SW%20165%20Winchester%20T%20Series%201208%20fps%203_zps5kvodaq5.jpg

    The bullet seemed to work well. Didn't expand as wide as the HST bullets but, did what it was supposed to do. It seems a hotter load than the Federal 155gr HST as they are 10gr heavier and still traveling 45 fps faster. Ain't a significant speed difference, but I expected them to be slower.

    I might pull some of these bullets and try them in my 10mm as well.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,881 Senior Member
    Good stuff
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,256 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »

    I might pull some of these bullets and try them in my 10mm as well.
    Good luck with that.
    The box I have of them expand about like that from my PM40 and the speed boost from my Glock22 is enough to tear them apart
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,256 Senior Member
    Glock 22
    Glock4.jpg

    PM40
    Kahr4.jpg
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,256 Senior Member
    And since you're probably thinking it, Yes, I have tested as many different bullets in my 10mm as I can get my hands on. The only ones I have loaded in 40 that I haven't tried in the 10 is the Fed 155 Bonded. I have some loaded, but haven't gotten around to testing them yet
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,834 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Good luck with that.

    Nothing to it but to do it.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,256 Senior Member
    :up:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,834 Senior Member
    Gun & Ammo
    Davis Ind. .32 ACP Derringer
    60gr Fiocchi [email protected] 1,021 fps

    Test
    Penetration Test w/ Water Jugs @ 7 Yards
    Accuracy @ 7 Yards

    Video
    116C2BF4-14F9-4ABB-9E23-315A4D17F40E_zpslecehugw.jpg

    The hydrostatic shock of the bullet on the jugs was rather melodramatic. So much so.....it wasn't worth downloading the video. So, here is a picture. That's about as dramatic as it got.

    Jugs
    84B81963-FA44-4900-9D05-52D2526448B7_zpszmvoey9s.jpg

    The bullet fully penetrated 3 jugs and stopped in the 4th. Coming to rest in the bottom.

    Recovered Bullet
    32%20ACP%2060gr%20Fiocchi%20SJHP%202_zpszzglcplb.jpg

    As you can see..........not a lot to see. This ammo is from the early 90s when I bought the gun. Whether or not times have changed and there has been a VAST improvement in .32 ACP ammo........I don't know. I DO know that this particular ammo pretty much sucks. Might as well be flat nosed ball ammo. I would rather carry .38 Special Wadcutter Target ammo.

    Accuracy @ 7 Yards
    32%20ACP%2060gr%20Fiocchi%20SJHP%208_zpsuyqq0dkk.jpgThere was no way I was accuracy testing this gun at 25 yards like most of the rest on this thread. I'm sure you understand the reality of that. Hell, I barely hit the backer at 7 YARDS!!! The first shot out of this gun is the bottom barrel. The POI from this barrel is 7" high and 1.5" left from POA. The second shot (after re-cocking the hammer) is the top barrel and it strikes just above POA at 7 yards. Ironically, the individual barrels are relatively consistent in and of themselves. Emptying the gun twice resulted in the 2 shot "groups" you see from each barrel. That actually ain't bad.

    Now, let's discuss the problems with this gun.

    Trigger: Absolutely ATROCIOUS!!! I have no clue how heavy it is, but I'm not sure my wife could pull the trigger. It's very small and being so heavy, compresses the pat of your trigger finger to where your finger contacts the frame of the gun around the trigger. Making it darn near impossible to pull the trigger. I found that I actually had to use the tip of my finger and the bone at the end to push the trigger in.

    Recoil: Not bad at all. Anemic even.

    Sights: Basically non existent. A tiny blade centered in a tiny "V".

    Reloading: Ain't happening in a hurry. I actually had to use a flat head screwdriver to hook the case head and pull the case out. It was very difficult and took several tries. This is a 2 and done deal in a real scenario.

    Reliability: It aint. I had several FTF on the first round (bottom barrel). A second strike fired the round, so I don't know if it was the ammo or the gun. But, it doesn't instill confidence.

    Bottom line...........this is a crappy gun with crappy ammo. Good thing this is my "Crapper Gun". Literally. It stays in the Crapper. It seems now, though........I'd be better off trowing something else at the bad guy than a bullet from this gun.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,767 Senior Member
    Not bad on penetration, actually, considering the light, open-nosed slug and the short barrel. IIRC, I got 5 jugs out of a 75 grain wheelweight flat point out of a 3.5" tube.

    The key with .32 would seem to be to shoot straight with something that will dig deep. . .and repeat as needed. Do-able with a decent pocket auto. Managing it with gripless SA derringer seems a pretty tall ask. In Benchmade We Trust!:jester:
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
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