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Need some google help for a barrel.

RocketmanRocketman BannedPosts: 1,118 Senior Member
I made a thread about building a 338win mag. Also mentioned making one on a heavy barrel. Don't care about cost, but my search skills on the net aren't great. Hoping someone can post a link for said/desired barrel. Don't know squat about what rifling twist is ideal either so if you could help me with that as well, that would be appreciated. Thanks gentleman. Brian
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Replies

  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Posts: 7,827 Senior Member
    I always got my barrel work done here! http://itdcustomgun.com/
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,024 Senior Member
    I've used Lilja and Krieger barrels with very satisfying results.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    Checking Shilen's recommended twists, they list 8, 9 and 10 twist as "suitable for all bullets" So, you want to use "long" heavy, standard, or light for caliber bullets?
    a 1:9 twist should handle anything you want to do with it.

    Shilen: http://www.shilen.com/index.html
    Lilja: http://riflebarrels.com/
    Hart: http://www.hartbarrels.com/

    are just a few of the MANY custom barrel makers

    And if you want a lighter weight, Carbon wrapped barrel, there's Proof Research: http://proofresearch.com/
    There's also Krieger, McGowen, Pac-Nor, Bartlein, Bergara.

    You can search on www.midwayusa.com and/or www.brownells.com and see what they carry.

    I'd suggest looking for a local gunsmith to do the installation
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    Thanks fellas for the help. I reckon I could have just googled "rifle barrels" but I'm glad Zee said what has worked for him. And Knitepoet, this build is all about building it myself just because. Figure I'll give my machinist skills a try.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    Rocketman wrote: »
    . And Knitepoet, this build is all about building it myself just because. Figure I'll give my machinist skills a try.
    That'll work :up: :beer:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,960 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Checking Shilen's recommended twists, they list 8, 9 and 10 twist as "suitable for all bullets" So, you want to use "long" heavy, standard, or light for caliber bullets?
    a 1:9 twist should handle anything you want to do with it.

    Shilen: http://www.shilen.com/index.html
    Lilja: http://riflebarrels.com/
    Hart: http://www.hartbarrels.com/

    are just a few of the MANY custom barrel makers

    And if you want a lighter weight, Carbon wrapped barrel, there's Proof Research: http://proofresearch.com/
    There's also Krieger, McGowen, Pac-Nor, Bartlein, Bergara.

    You can search on www.midwayusa.com and/or www.brownells.com and see what they carry.

    I'd suggest looking for a local gunsmith to do the installation

    Ya forget Douglas, Shaw, Lothar

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Posts: 7,827 Senior Member
    If you've never done one before I highly recommend practice with a junker barrel first.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Then adapt it to a 1911 grip frame for the ultimate GTFOM single shot smooth bore!
    Jerry
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,769 Senior Member
    My favorite barrel supplier is Kreiger. I buy them in pairs these days. They have always been superb barrels.

    There are essentially two methods of rifling for match barrels: cut-rifling and button-rifling. I prefer cut-rifling but I've had excellent button-rifled barrels. The mass market will use hammer forged rifling which can also be quite good and broaching, which is essentially the bottom of the barrel (pun fully intended.)

    Cut-rifling companies are Krieger, Lija, Hart, and others. Button rifling companies are Broughton (mine has been excellent), Criterion, Shilen and others. Douglas, Lothar-Walther are second-tier barrels, I would not waste my time on them.

    If you are going to build your greatest rifle, I would urge you to look at cut or button rifled, cut being my favorite.

    Did you decide on stainless or chrome-moly steel? You will also need to figure out a contour and the twist. When it comes to twist, faster is better. I like the Palma contour because I find it elegant, but I've had intense discussions with other who prefer more cylindrical (peasants.) I like longer barrel for the added velocity. I would think in a 338 you want it long to tame that muzzle blast.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Rocketman wrote: »
    Thanks fellas for the help. I reckon I could have just googled "rifle barrels" but I'm glad Zee said what has worked for him. And Knitepoet, this build is all about building it myself just because. Figure I'll give my machinist skills a try.

    I've built guns, or rather had guns built, with E.R. Shaw, Krieger, and Shilen barrels. Depends on how much you want to spend. Krieger is one of the few barrels where the rifling is actually cut with a cutter, not buttoned or hammer forged. It is thought by many to be a fundamentally more inherently accurate method. It cuts the metal, it doesn't merley displace it which creates less stress. That's what they claim anyway, and I bought into it. And there seems to be some evidence that it is true. However, for a hunting rifle, there's many good barrels out there.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,050 Senior Member
    Add me to the Krieger/Lilja camp. I've had great luck with both, but, I'd give the nod to Krieger. For no better reason than it took me longer to get a Krieger than a Lilja.
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    Pegasus, you sound like you're quite knowledgeable in barrels so I have to ask which is the better material? Money isn't the issue with that. I was also thinking a longer barrel also because more can always become less in the future and I don't reckon I'll be using this for hunting unless it were at a descently long(ish) range.
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,769 Senior Member
    I spend a lot of time considering barrels and selecting what is need to accomplish my goals. However these goals are very specific and rather specialized, but it has given me the opportunity to learn a great deal about barrels.

    I will say right off, that the barrel is the singlemost important component in an otherwise functional rifle. All manners of triggers, actions, scopes, stock, etc will not make a poor barrel any more precise. A great scope with a lousy barrel will just show your misses in finer detail.

    Match barrels are usually stainless steel, but that does not mean that chrome-moly barrels are incapable of very high precision. If you want a top quality barrel and you don't care whether it's stainless or chromo-moly, I would opt for stainless steel. I've been told it machines better, but that I do not know. I pick my components, come up with the exact specs and hand everything to my gunsmith, along with a dummy round with the bullet seated to my specs.

    I pick the Palma contour because it starts thick, drops abruptly to 1.00 inch and tapers off to end diameter for the length of the barrel. I chose a heavy Palma contour and changed the length and muzzle diameter. My big concern in a match is heat generated by what may be rapid firing of 20+ rounds requiring high precision. Thicker barrels take more heat before having issues and I believe there is more heat near the chamber than further down the barrel, so more meat near the chamber is better than way down the barrel. Stainless steel is not a great conductor of heat unlike chrome-moly steel, so keep that in mind. Spend some time at Krieger or Broughton or others to look at the various contours.

    Longer barrels allow the use of the hot pressurized gases from the cartridge and magnums generate a lot of those gasses, let's take advantage of them.

    A top notch barrel will be between $350-450 depending on who makes it and the length.

    One critical aspect of match barrels from Krieger et al, is that they will be lapped. This means they will be super smooth and not collect copper. Of course, the machining of the chamber will create issues that will lead to copper deposits, unless you are very careful.

    Finally, at my age, I have played with enough toys that I know what I like in many things. It may not be right, but for me, they work very well and in my case, I only get barrels from Krieger anymore.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    And Brownells lists them as well..

    http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrels/index.htm

    It doesn't look like they carry a .338 except for the large ring mauser... or a .338-06 for a Savage for $200.00

    Unless you want to go a blank and ream it / thread it yourself...

    http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrel-blanks/index.htm

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • jbohiojbohio Senior Member Posts: 5,575 Senior Member
    I've been very pleased with McGowen barrels, especially ones I've gotten from The Barrel Outlet.
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    And Brownells lists them as well..

    http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrels/index.htm

    It doesn't look like they carry a .338 except for the large ring mauser... or a .338-06 for a Savage for $200.00

    Unless you want to go a blank and ream it / thread it yourself...

    http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrel-blanks/index.htm

    D

    Definitely have my heart set on reaming and threading. Sounds like I'll be going with a heavy barrel, long and stainless steel. I don't mind machining either metal and I doubt I'll ever shoot in a match. Just want to build it to be "mine" so to speak.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    A stainless barrel can be tricky to thread. Use a VERY sharp carbide threading tool and a stainless-specific cutting lube, and experiment on a piece of scrap with the same alloy to find the proper cutting speed. Most of the self-appointed experts who recommend a particular barrel maker have no involvement in the actual machining job of installing and headspacing the tube other than writing a check or whipping out a piece of plastic. Some of them probably couldn't tell a lathe from a mill or a surface grinder!

    Jerry
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    I've turned stainless in producing some intricate rocket nozzles and used HSS at low rpm. Not sure if that will also be feasible for threading though? Carbide a must?
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Rocketman wrote: »
    Pegasus, you sound like you're quite knowledgeable in barrels so I have to ask which is the better material? Money isn't the issue with that. I was also thinking a longer barrel also because more can always become less in the future and I don't reckon I'll be using this for hunting unless it were at a descently long(ish) range.

    Reading this, my choice would be a Krieger, Stainless, 28 inches long, at least heavy sporter contour. That's going to make it on the heavy side, around 10-12 pounds. But for what you're gonna do with it, so what? You're not carrying this in the mountains stalking elk all day at 10,000 feet, so it should work fine.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    Unless I have the physique of a certain governor of California. But I do not.. :jester:
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,499 Senior Member
    Rocketman,
    I get it that you want a 338 WM...Cool
    What kind of accuracy requirements do you have?
    Action you are going to build it on?
    Use(s)?
    Max distance?
    Big game or just shooting, both???
    I use Brux, Broughton, Bartlein, Proof, and Krieger the most.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Jeff in TXJeff in TX Senior Member Posts: 2,056 Senior Member
    Rocketman,
    I get it that you want a 338 WM...Cool
    What kind of accuracy requirements do you have?
    Action you are going to build it on?
    Use(s)?
    Max distance?
    Big game or just shooting, both???
    I use Brux, Broughton, Bartlein, Proof, and Krieger the most.

    Ernie's got a lot of great questions that may help in your decision process

    K&P Barrels, number one barrel used in 50 Cal competitions. Few folks have heard of them, those who use them swear by them.
    Bartlein Barrels they use state of the art machining and can hold twist tolerances to .0000 Meaning if you wanted an 1:11.2567 or a 1:10.7485 twist they can do it. There focus is to build what the customer wants. Tops in most benchrest competitions and used a lot in tactical environment
    Brux Barrels small barrel builder, incredible attention to detail and great customer service.
    Rock Creek Barrels Mike Rock is a disciple of Boots Obermeyer's and has the US Army's contract for their M-24 SWS barrels.
    Kreiger, Lilja, Hart and Shilen all have been around forever and build great barrels

    I would bet most of these barrel manufactures build barrels that shoot better than the person behind the gun. All have great service.

    I have Rock Creek, Bartlein, Brux and K&P on my rifles and all of them are nail drivers!
    Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

    John 3: 1-21
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    Rocketman,
    I get it that you want a 338 WM...Cool
    What kind of accuracy requirements do you have?
    Action you are going to build it on?
    Use(s)?
    Max distance?
    Big game or just shooting, both???
    I use Brux, Broughton, Bartlein, Proof, and Krieger the most.

    As accurate as possible of course.
    Remington 700.
    Punching paper, possibly some long(ish) prone hunting shots.
    At distances I feel comfortable hunting given the right circumstances.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Rocketman wrote: »
    Carbide a must?

    The main advantage to carbide is that it stays sharp through the whole job. Stainless has a nasty habit of galling instead of cutting cleanly, and repeatedly chasing the same thread as the depth of cut increases for subsequent passes makes that a lot more of a problem. If the tool bit starts to get a little dull halfway through the job, you might botch up the job on one of the final passes. I like to stop a few thousandths fat, and custom fit it with a thread file.
    Jerry
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    Thank you. I'll use your advice. Nothing worse than trying to pick up on a cut after you've already started chasing. Never tried the thread file trick either. Do you turn the rpms down low and use the file with the barrel still chucked in the lathe?
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,499 Senior Member
    Rocketman wrote: »
    As accurate as possible of course.
    Remington 700.
    Punching paper, possibly some long(ish) prone hunting shots.
    At distances I feel comfortable hunting given the right circumstances.

    How accurate is that at 100 yards and at 500 yards? Group size?
    What do you consider your max distance for hunting (What is the largest animal you have in mind?) from the prone position in ideal conditions?
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Rocketman wrote: »
    Do you turn the rpms down low and use the file with the barrel still chucked in the lathe?

    I'm usually cutting the main thread at about midrange spindle speed with the back gear engaged, and filing for a final fit at the same speed or slightly faster. I like to get close to a 100% thread engagement between the barrel and the receiver for alignment and strength purposes. Turning 50K+ PSI of pressure loose a few inches from my nose calls for as much safety factor as possible!
    Jerry
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    The main advantage to carbide is that it stays sharp through the whole job. Stainless has a nasty habit of galling instead of cutting cleanly, and repeatedly chasing the same thread as the depth of cut increases for subsequent passes makes that a lot more of a problem. If the tool bit starts to get a little dull halfway through the job, you might botch up the job on one of the final passes. I like to stop a few thousandths fat, and custom fit it with a thread file.
    Jerry
    Teach wrote: »
    I'm usually cutting the main thread at about midrange spindle speed with the back gear engaged, and filing for a final fit at the same speed or slightly faster. I like to get close to a 100% thread engagement between the barrel and the receiver for alignment and strength purposes. Turning 50K+ PSI of pressure loose a few inches from my nose calls for as much safety factor as possible!
    Jerry

    :agree::agree: Both posts are on the money. Carbide threading cutters give a much better cut and stay sharp on stainless steel. Stainless has a nasty habit of wanting to smear/tear rather that cut if the tool bit isn't sharp. Carbide stays sharp. And what it does for stainless it does for carbon steel like nobody's bidness!

    As to finishing up with the thread file, that is the best way to get a smooth almost polished thread on the part. And that lathe speed and for cutting and finish filing is what I use, too. Teach has built way more rifles than I have and his advice is on the money on this and the other stuff. And when getting a tool bit holder for the carbide threading tool, make sure you get the correct grade carbide insert for stainless steel. They come in different grades for different metals.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Here's another sneaky trick- - - - -tungsten carbide is the second-hardest material used for machine shop cutting tools. The only thing harder is diamond. I keep a diamond dust coated needle file handy at the lathe bench to give carbide cutting edges a quick touch-up between passes when I'm making precision cuts on material like air-hardening drill rod, tool steel, stainless, etc.
    Jerry
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