The Human Target - And it's misconceptions.

ZeeZee Senior MemberPosts: 20,597 Senior Member
Let's face it, all men are NOT created equal. At least in body size. Being a Carney, I've come to accept that fact.

Not everyone can be the perfect size like me. :cool:

Some folks make for a bigger target. Others.........not so much. Regardless, the human anatomy is pretty much the same from a defensive perspective. In the taking a knife serious thread, targeting the head and legs was mentioned. As well as the pelvic girdle. Just so folks can understand what it is that they are looking at, I decided to post a target that most of us can relate to.

ipsc-cb_L_zpsjub6rkip.jpg

It's a standard IPSC Target. Most of us have heard of, seen, held, or shot at one.

ipsctarg_zpsbrzj9kkj.gif

And there are the sizes to the scoring boxes.

Now, let's take that common target and superimpose a humanoid figure over it and see what we get.

VTAC-P-1_zpslbnyfe0n.jpg

Voila! A shadow figure of the human skeletal structure superimposed over an IPSC Target (Dotted Outline). It's pretty accurate as I've held both of them (IPSC and VTAC Target) up to my torso for comparison.

Defining the points of aim:

The "A" Zone of the IPSC corresponds with the center of the rib cage and more specifically, the upper "A" Zone portion and the upper rib cage where the heart/aeorta/traches/bronchi are located. This upper portion of the "A" Zone measures 6"x6" in size. That, is the center mass area of opportunity. Can you hit a 6"x6" target under stress and moving?

The "A" Zone of the IPCS Face is actually too low and coresponds with the "mouth" of a humanoid target. So, the VTAC Target adds to it by adding a portion above the "A" Zone IPSC face. This added portion correlates with the cranial vault of a human. The spot where flacid paralysis can be attained. It measures 2.5"x4" in size. Can YOU hit a target that small.........under stress........moving........or with IT moving?

The bottom portion of the IPSC can be measured to simulate the pelvic girdle. As you can see on the VTAC Target, this portion is at the bottom of the IPSC and measures 6"x8" in size. Being larger, it could be an option if provided the realistic opportunity.

There ya go. Your target sizes.

2.5"x4"
6"x6"
6"x8"

Your job is to hit them.

Static...........moving..........under stress...........under time.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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Replies

  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    This is something that bullet tests cant reproduce. The constant changing movement of target and projectile launcher.

    Ive seen bullets go into the thorax of a deer and seeming turn 90 degrees before exiting. I believe what I saw is an illusion caused be rapid movement of the deer during impact.

    Also hence my comments about trying to fire while scuffleing. One will hit what one can or even potentially not.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,597 Senior Member
    The boxes outlined in red are the areas of interest and where we should strive to place our rounds in a defensive situation.

    2.5"x4"
    6"x6"
    6"x8"


    VTAC-P-1%20-%20Copy_zpshrmsgvwv.jpg

    Anything else (other than the spine/neck) is less likely to provide the positive reaction of stopping the threat of a determined attacker. To accept less in our training performance is to accept mediocrity and failure.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,099 Senior Member
    Reminds me of a quick and dirty target Clint Smith advised....

    Get two 6" paper plates and an 3"x5" index card. Put 'em in the right places and you have the only targets that count. Staple/nail/tape 'em on your backer. Don't worry about having a clean backer, as misses don't count anyway.

    Problem is is that as folks move the target zones get smaller or are occluded. Hard to train for.

    I remember reading about a trainer, John Farnam I believe, who used a balloon inflated to 6" in diameter and placed in the back of the target. The shooter couldn't see the balloon, but if he hit the balloon would fall over "dead." Taught shot placement. I think I know a way to rig up a target to do that, but I can't test it out at a public range. They don't like bringing in "non-standard" targets.

    Interesting aside, I've been re-reading "American Sniper." Chris Kyle talks about sniper training and what they aimed for. Said they very rarely went for headshots, relying instead on COM. Bigger, easier to hit, and gave good results. It's also why he didn't like the Mk 12 SPR in 5.56. At longer ranges it wasn't a dependable stopper. Interestingly he liked the M4 in 5.56 and its results... as long as you used the cartridge within its limitations.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,517 Senior Member
    Great post, when I practice I always go for the " A " COM section of the target, in the future I will mark the superimposed image on my targets.

    Thanks

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,657 Senior Member
    Very good info. Shows just how small our target is. Add stress and movement on both sides and in practice we find just how not good most of us are. Using a public range makes proper training almost impossible
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,597 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Very good info. Shows just how small our target is. Add stress and movement on both sides and in practice we find just how not good most of us are. Using a public range makes proper training almost impossible

    Do the basics well!!!

    Front Sight & Trigger Control

    There is nothing Jedi about combat or competitive shooting. It is simply doing the basics well and then........doing them quickly. Master the basics and you are well on your way.

    Shoot at that 6x6 square from a static position at 25 yards doing ALL the fundamentals right. When you can place all your rounds in that square at that distance.........it becomes HUGE at 7 yards and less.

    But, nothing changes. Front sight............trigger control. Over........and over.........and over.

    If if your platform is stable and you can control the gun, every shot should incorporate the sights and the smooth but quick trigger press will place that round exactly where the front sight was. It ain't magic. At defensive distances.......where that sight is when the trigger breaks......is where the bullet will go. If you don't know where your sight was, you don't know where your bullet went.

    Ball and Dummy Drills will tell you if you have good trigger control.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    Good information.
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,327 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Ball and Dummy Drills will tell you if you have good trigger control.

    Yep.

    Combine ball and dummy with trigger reset drills, get malfunction clearing practice every time you get a dummy round. Front sight, press, click, tap, rack............ Lots of practice with minimal ammo use.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,037 Senior Member
    I would add, if you're ever in or near a city with a museum that hosts an exhibit of Body Worlds, go see it. This is the plastinated human (and animal) cadavers displayed in various poses and states of disassembly. It's probably the best instruction in shot placement to where things ACTUALLY ARE in a three dimensional target you'll ever get.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,099 Senior Member
    GrAy's Anatomy. The one with the A. It's a book.

    Grey's Anatomy is the show Wambli watches while eating Dove Bars and bon-bons.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,099 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Sorry, victim of autocorrect and posting from my iPhone. Thanks for catching that.
    10% smarter than the equipment.

    I know it's an Apple, but it's not THAT smart...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,099 Senior Member
    I was just thinking about this today.


    So, Zee: you're saying an 8" group at 7 yds. isn't what we should strive for?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,597 Senior Member
    I was just thinking about this today.


    So, Zee: you're saying an 8" group at 7 yds. isn't what we should strive for?


    Correct.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,099 Senior Member
    But... that's not what some self defense instructors say!

    What if the buy's overweight/obese? Their heart's gotta be bigger, right?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,597 Senior Member
    But... that's not what some self defense instructors say!

    What if the buy's overweight/obese? Their heart's gotta be bigger, right?

    AB7960D6-DE44-4151-A16B-6C2787D2990C_zpsweisbhac.jpg
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,966 Senior Member
    But... that's not what some self defense instructors say!

    What if the buy's overweight/obese? Their heart's gotta be bigger, right?
    Yeah, if some Buy is really really obese the heart is bigger because it is encased in a thick layer of hard fat making the heart bullet proof.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,095 Senior Member
    I learned the target area a bit different, but it was geared to shipboard threats when armed with a 1911. Target area was the left pocket inside edge of where a shirt pocket would be, and a line below the belt buckle. Heart/lung and breaking down the hip joints and maybe severing one of the two main arteries of either leg. Head shots were severely discouraged. A miss at a head shot equals a ricochet, and since EVERYTHING inside the ship is plate metal of some type a ricochet is/can be as dangerous to the shooter as it is to the knothead being shot at. Only time we were encouraged to try a head shot was within 10 feet or less, and at that point fire to slide lock. And when you're using a 1911 with a trigger pull approaching 20 pounds, accurate pinpoint bullet placement would be a confirmed accident.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,626 Senior Member
    In the instant of a life and death self-defense event, you've got from a fraction of second to a whole second or two to draw, present, aim and fire your weapon. You're not going to be deliberating what part of the body to aim for, it's shoot at any part of your attacker you can, as soon as you can. Don't you people watch TV?
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,451 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Unless you actually do something silly, like practice. :roll:

    Gun 'practice'?? That's for bloodthirsty psychopaths! :guns:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    Any wound is going to have some effect. Sometimes even a miss will have the effect of ending the fight. YMMV
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,597 Senior Member
    Wow. I never expected so many who believed mediocrity an acceptable standard.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,597 Senior Member
    When I read posts like some of the above, my brain instantly translates them.

    "I suck at shooting but, I'm ok with that because I don't see the necessity to practice. Carrying a gun is only window dressing for me as I expect any enemy I encounter to be as equally weak minded as I. My lack of preparation is shadowed by their lack of determination. Everything will be just fine."


    Sorry.











    Eh, no I'm not.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,026 Senior Member
    :rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
    I thought you were going to offer a pat on the back and a tummy rub.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    When I read posts like some of the above, my brain instantly translates them.

    "I suck at shooting but, I'm ok with that because I don't see the necessity to practice. Carrying a gun is only window dressing for me as I expect any enemy I encounter to be as equally weak minded as I. My lack of preparation is shadowed by their lack of determination. Everything will be just fine."


    Sorry.













    Eh, no I'm not.



    WOW, did I write all that? I think you misunderstood my meaning, I was speaking in general. Not about me personally.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,597 Senior Member
    john9001 wrote: »
    WOW, did I write all that? I think you misunderstood my meaning, I was speaking in general. Not about me personally.

    Carry on, then. My apologies to you. :up::up:

    It sounded like an acceptance of failure. In not hitting your target.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    I just "clack-clack" my double barrel pump shotty.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,597 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    I just "clack-clack" my double barrel pump shotty.

    I hear that works exceptionally well.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,657 Senior Member
    The Vice President said so, it must be true
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,451 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    I just "clack-clack" my double barrel pump shotty.



    When you clackety-clack, they go running out the back....door, that is. You don't even need a double barrel pump shotty... You just need to sound like you have a double barrel pump shotty. Use one of those old credit card machines from the 80s, or one of those can crushers... only without the can. Nobody will know the difference and those things are lots safer too! :silly:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,597 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    When you clackety-clack, they go running out the back....door, that is. You don't even need a double barrel pump shotty... You just need to sound like you have a double barrel pump shotty. Use one of those old credit card machines from the 80s, or one of those can crushers... only without the can. Nobody will know the difference and those things are lots safer too! :silly:


    And he wouldn't have to worry about having another gun he doesn't shoot.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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