The Human Target - And it's misconceptions.

2

Replies

  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    And he wouldn't have to worry about having another gun he doesn't shoot.

    The home invaders never give me a chance to shoot. They always "arr you in in oh eff tee."
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,552 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Do the basics well!!!

    Shoot at that 6x6 square from a static position at 25 yards doing ALL the fundamentals right. When you can place all your rounds in that square at that distance.........it becomes HUGE at 7 yards and less.

    But, nothing changes. Front sight............trigger control. Over........and over.........and over.
    You mean that I am NOT supposed to shoot all of my targets at the required 7 yards hanging by my left foot with a defib making my heart go pitty pat?

    Thats just silly. Havent you read on the interwebs that there is no reason to practice beyond 21 feet because statistics say that all encounters will be stepped off before the draw and that snubbie just wont hit that far out? And slow fire to practice control? Oh no, that is so 1980's. You need to mag dump from the supine Cleopatra fawning position to be operator.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,188 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    When you clackety-clack, they go running out the back....door, that is. You don't even need a double barrel pump shotty... You just need to sound like you have a double barrel pump shotty. Use one of those old credit card machines from the 80s, or one of those can crushers... only without the can. Nobody will know the difference and those things are lots safer too! :silly:
    I have an app on my phone that sounds like a shotgun. Easy peasy.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,503 Senior Member
    I have an app on my phone that sounds like a shotgun. Easy peasy.


    See? Technology wins every stinking time! No need for old tech like guns!
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Wow. I never expected so many who believed mediocrity an acceptable standard.


    You haven't been paying attention. Have you?

    :tooth:
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Wow. I never expected so many who believed mediocrity an acceptable standard.

    It's not mediocrity at all. Just a reality check. If you're lucky enough to be accosted by an experienced thug(s), he (they) will strike by surprise, when and where you least expect it, probably from behind. Your first realization of the threat is finding yourself lying face down on the sidewalk or pavement, disoriented perhaps from a concussion, and bleeding from half a dozen cuts and abrasions, and still being kicked and punched. Practice THAT.

    It's not like Death Wish where Bronson is confronted by talkative muggers who want to get in your face and strut their threats and stuff. In real life on the mean streets, it's often over the instant it begins. Home invasions are different. There is generally some short length of time for the invader(s) to cover the distance from their point of entry to where you are and that moment can be put to good use for your benefit.

    Every self-defense event is a one-off, unique, mostly variables, with few if any constants. You can't practice that. So, if we don't stand a chance against a smart and determined bad guy(s), why bother to carry at all? For lots of good reasons for lots of potential scenarios. All just as unpredictable.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,772 Senior Member
    I intend to do the basics well. That's why I practice.

    It's worked so far.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,772 Senior Member
    I practice incessantly to train the brain the performance of basic marksmanship and fundamental tasks whereby I free my mental functions from having to THINK about things that should be second nature. Drawing. Sight alignment. Sight picture. Trigger control. Reload. Malfunction drills. Shooting while moving. Shooting a moving target. All require the basics and require them to be done well.

    Therefore...........if I do the basics well............I don't have to think about them. I just DO them!

    The brain is therefore freed to worry about all the stuff I CAN'T practice. Like getting me the HELL out of or through a bad situation and all the multitude of things that come with it.

    Shooting.......should NOT mentally task you in such a situation. Shooting...........and shooting accurately...........should come easy.

    Because we practice............to do the basics well.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    It's not mediocrity at all. Just a reality check. If you're lucky enough to be accosted by an experienced thug(s), he (they) will strike by surprise, when and where you least expect it, probably from behind. Your first realization of the threat is finding yourself lying face down on the sidewalk or pavement, disoriented perhaps from a concussion, and bleeding from half a dozen cuts and abrasions, and still being kicked and punched. Practice THAT.

    It's not like Death Wish where Bronson is confronted by talkative muggers who want to get in your face and strut their threats and stuff. In real life on the mean streets, it's often over the instant it begins. Home invasions are different. There is generally some short length of time for the invader(s) to cover the distance from their point of entry to where you are and that moment can be put to good use for your benefit.

    Every self-defense event is a one-off, unique, mostly variables, with few if any constants. You can't practice that. So, if we don't stand a chance against a smart and determined bad guy(s), why bother to carry at all? For lots of good reasons for lots of potential scenarios. All just as unpredictable.
    You need to practice making the "chick chick" noise with your mouth. Every knows that sound and that it means business. Like when the bad guys cock their Glock on the movies.
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    You need to practice making the "chick chick" noise with your mouth.


    Not required, my dear boy.

    Just use your best, plummy, upper crust English accent (I know you have one) or in my case, one's normal speaking voice.

    "Oh, I say old chap, steady on."

    As the malefactor steps back, to admire the cut of your jib, one smacks him in the goolies with one's shooting stick.

    We built an Empire that way.

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    And if they still advance, you yell, "Have at you!"

    And actually my English accents are usually cockney or Yorkshire.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,772 Senior Member
    The art of sarcasm has been absent the forum as of late. I'm glad to have you back.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,552 Senior Member
    though the art looks more like a finger paint...
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,769 Senior Member
    john9001 wrote: »
    Any wound is going to have some effect. Sometimes even a miss will have the effect of ending the fight. YMMV


    Not always. In a lot of fights, some wounds, even eventually fatal wounds, have no immediate effect.

    Practice where you can stack all your shots into the tiniest group possible, as fast as possible. That way, when the balloon goes up you might actually hit the right spot with 50% of your shots.

    Real SD encounters are NOTHING like you think. They are fast, chaotic, brutal, and the good guy does not always come out ahead. They can be close, they can have distance. None are the same. And the 7 yard average tells you something.... it's an AVERAGE. So, go each one that is a Zimmerman/ Martin ground grapple at muzzle contact range there is one that is MUCH FURTHER.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,100 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I practice incessantly to train the brain the performance of basic marksmanship and fundamental tasks whereby I free my mental functions from having to THINK about things that should be second nature. Drawing. Sight alignment. Sight picture. Trigger control. Reload. Malfunction drills. Shooting while moving. Shooting a moving target. All require the basics and require them to be done well.

    Therefore...........if I do the basics well............I don't have to think about them. I just DO them!

    The brain is therefore freed to worry about all the stuff I CAN'T practice. Like getting me the HELL out of or through a bad situation and all the multitude of things that come with it.

    Shooting.......should NOT mentally task you in such a situation. Shooting...........and shooting accurately...........should come easy.

    Because we practice............to do the basics well.

    This was explained in a very clear and accurate way.
    Statements like this should be said more often when working with others.
    Sadly, most do not believe it enough or consider it important enough to actually put in into practice.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    The art of sarcasm has been absent the forum as of late. I'm glad to have you back.
    I don't know what you're talking about. I'm deadly serious.

    I'm still alive, aren't I? Clearly my clack clacking works. You're just spending too much time training with silly techniques.

    Say it with me. Clack clack.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    though the art looks more like a finger paint...
    I usually wind up eating the paint and crayons.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,503 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    I don't know what you're talking about. I'm deadly serious.

    I'm still alive, aren't I? Clearly my clack clacking works. You're just spending too much time training with silly techniques.

    Say it with me. Clack clack.



    So now we have to practice clacking?!?


    This is too much...
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,078 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Wow. I never expected so many who believed mediocrity an acceptable standard.

    That and complacency. I like IDPA as it is rarely a single attacker. We train to often for one scenario when in this day and age it is more than likely that there will be multiple "targets" to address under stress. IMHO
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    So now we have to practice clacking?!?


    This is too much...

    Coconuts?

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Not always. In a lot of fights, some wounds, even eventually fatal wounds, have no immediate effect.

    Practice where you can stack all your shots into the tiniest group possible, as fast as possible. That way, when the balloon goes up you might actually hit the right spot with 50% of your shots.

    Real SD encounters are NOTHING like you think. They are fast, chaotic, brutal, and the good guy does not always come out ahead. They can be close, they can have distance. None are the same. And the 7 yard average tells you something.... it's an AVERAGE. So, go each one that is a Zimmerman/ Martin ground grapple at muzzle contact range there is one that is MUCH FURTHER.

    This. And if your first indicator of an attack is an arm on your neck and a shiv in your side, you're doing it wrong.
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,552 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    So now we have to practice clacking?!?


    This is too much...

    Shuck - clack - clacking. Its a double barreled pump action.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,744 Senior Member
    Well, my first thought is to get my loved ones out of the situation. But, I would. Not draw my gun unless it was needed. The last thing I need is to get shot by a first responder because I have a gun out and not wearing the color of the day. However, if we came across said bad guy and depending on situation I would engage if there is no other choice.
    50 yards away we do our best to get clear, couple of aisle s inside the store or escape is blocked, well again depending on set up and how many etc, engage if no other choice. Even with as much detail given, it still isnt enough.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,503 Senior Member
    In this scenario, do I have my stall-climbing ninjy boots?


    In all seriousness, It would completely depend on the situation. I have no illusions about how operator I am. In the 'active shooter' scenario, I am already likely outgunned, not to mention behind the curve concerning the actions of the bad guy(s) in question.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,772 Senior Member
    To have the means and the ability............yet walk away. That, is a life I could not continue.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,769 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    To have the means and the ability............yet walk away. That, is a life I could not continue.

    Yep
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    ...........


    Exactly.

    Which is the main reason that I carry a "fighting" pistol, instead of a "carry" pistol. I'm simply not confident in my ability to take a 50/75/100 yard shot with something that will fit in my pants pocket. Have I hit silhouette targets at 50 yards with a J-Frame, or 100 yards with a Glock 43.....yes. Do I have confidence in my ability to do it under extreme stress......nope.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,552 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    And now I'm going to introduce a subject that is sure to create a :fan:but let's find out if we can actually have an UN-emotional conversation about it. I expect people will have different positions on this subject but here it goes...

    And in all cases, what do you do if you see a BG with and long gun 50 yards away from you?
    Assuming the BG has no clue he is in a state that puts more armed people in the woods in deer season than most standing armies have, is a open carry state, and has had LCTF for at least 45 years, and he doesnt target me... Find cover, then shoot him if I have the 1911. Will I drill perfectly between his eyes, nope, but he will gain a hole. The mouse gun, probably cover and hold till I can make the shot. I havent shot that at 50. Weekend is coming though.
    I've thought about this as I go about my life and wonder what I would do if I turned around a food isle at Lowes and there was a guy blocking the doorway with an AK-47 trying to keep everyone away from the door. What would I do if suddenly I had two miscreants blocking the two exits of my movie theater? What would I do if I was presented the opportunity to engage a clearly BG that's 5-10 isles away at Walmart?
    5 aisles is about 50 feet, 8 yards, 10 aisles would be 100' at a stretch. Practice at 25. If you want to get real, use a can of beans for a rest.

    One on each door? Well you will only have one to engage, unless you are alone in the theater. Take the one you have. Shoot and move.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    I'm handicapped in my old age - I can slowly walk short distances with a cane and even slower, shorter ones without one, so I am under no illusions of Ramboism. There are few precedents in reality or fantasy of snails or turtles charging to the rescue. If, God forbid, I find myself in the vicinity of an active shooter, I'm either outta there or diving for cover! If I am so unfortunate as to be in the immediate vicinity, and thus in existential, imminent peril, that's when I draw my weapon and under whatever the circumstances happen to be, do the best I can.
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    50 yards is a shot I can make COM with one of my full size guns. I have practiced at 50-100 because it is fun.

    As to engage or not, I agree with Zee.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
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