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Yet another shooting.

FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior MemberPosts: 5,797 Senior Member
This is another unarmed black guy with possible mental issues, this time in California.http://my.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20160928/3187dc87-f6de-41b6-aec8-e0eec2116d21
snake284 wrote: »
For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
.
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Replies

  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Word from Char-Meck Airport is Soros has already chartered a 747 to fly his professional protesters from the BLM to go from Charlotte to El Cahon ...
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    What would the dummycraps do if sore-ass came down with a terminal case of ballistic heartburn?
    Jerry
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    I got an idea, maybe we stop shooting people first and asking questions later. I get it, cops have a dangerous job. I don't envy them. But they shouldn't have the right to execute anyone they feel vaguely threatened by.

    Reminds me of the southpark episode except significantly less funny:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU

    This times 1000.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    I got an idea, maybe we stop shooting people first and asking questions later. I get it, cops have a dangerous job. I don't envy them. But they shouldn't have the right to execute anyone they feel vaguely threatened by.

    Reminds me of the southpark episode except significantly less funny:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU

    Or how about people that don't want to get shot obey the lawful orders of the police? If someone walking around on the street doesn't understand that due to diminished capacity, maybe they should not be on the street in the first place.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    I got an idea, maybe we stop shooting people first and asking questions later. I get it, cops have a dangerous job. I don't envy them. But they shouldn't have the right to execute anyone they feel vaguely threatened by.


    What I don't get is that with all of these shooting incidents going on, I would think that LEO's would be at least a tiny bit more cautious about pulling a trigger but instead, more unarmed people are being shot. I'm sure that BLM advocating shooting LEO's has a lot to do with LEO's being jumpy and on edge.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Alpha and Wambli, take a GOOD look at that still picture and tell me he had his hands up and that the officers didn't believe that they were to be shot. Especially the one standing in front of him. Looks to me like he was aiming for the cops head. Split second decision of Shoot-Don't Shoot.

    Speaking of which, there are plenty of videos showing the Shoot-Don't Shoot training taken by black and white non cops, and they both shoot blacks more often than whites, not by a lot but it's there. And the ones taking the training get shot a LOT more often by the training scenario video bad guy than the cops. Easy to armchair quarterback this stuff when you aren't there.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,469 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Or how about people that don't want to get shot obey the lawful orders of the police?

    WORD.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    It's open season on cops and they know it. An officer deals with lots and lots of people, and if he's wrong about a suspect only once - he's dead. It's a sign of the times - the political divide has evolved into militant polarization, and now, total radicalization and the only way around it, for the time being, is to let the officers have their way. Maybe a new president will calm things down a bit. Until then, do what you're told, and ****.
  • Hondo341Hondo341 Member Posts: 448 Member
    Alpha and Tuba. Are you, or have you ever been a cop? I doubt it! I retired a year ago as a Deputy. I guarantee you citizens are given every benefit of the doubt. Shooting someone would be the absolute last thing I would ever want to do. These cops are putting their butts on the line every day. I see how the cops are mistreated by people all the time. Does bad stuff happen by a cops hand? Yes.......but not very often! Ferguson, Charlotte, etc. were bad screw-ups by the person that got shot; period. Now, any cop shooting of a person of color is a reason to go do some "undocumented shopping." End of story. This is BS and everyone knows it!
    "People are responsible to play a role in their own safety." Sheriff David Clarke 2016
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Because it's an ongoing investigation and releasing potential evidence that might be needed later in a courtroom would pollute a whole city of prospective jurors.

    I agree that I wish more cops would use non lethal force, and actually, I'm sure most do but we only hear about the ones that do not. But that one picture is pretty darn compelling. As I said, all things being equal I would have shot him too.

    Glad you took a look at that photo. :up: That's only one frame but at least it gives a little context to the shooting. And the video is evidence that will be used in court, as you say, so it needs to be protected as evidence same as any other evidence in which a shooting happens, or most any other lesser use of force.

    I kind of expect a cell phone video will surface soon showing the whole thing and taint any jury pool requiring a change of venue to somewhere that doesn't have internet access(the planet Mars?). This is making it hard for either side to get a fair hearing in court and an unbiased jury. All this demanding of releasing the videos of these incidents of use of force before evidence is gathered and before the investigation and a trial, if there is a trial, smells a lot like mob rule and anarchy. That's the system, and it works if people will calm the fornication down and let it happen.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,626 Senior Member
    The photo sown certainly looks as though the dude is preparing to shoot.

    I am not a cop, nor have I played one on TV or stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently...

    Having said that, if I'm pointing a gun at you and I tell you to remove your hand from your pocket and you do it the same way this guy did, you can rest assured that I won't shoot based on skin color or how you dress or even what language you speak. You can also rest assured that what happens at that point will be bought and paid for by you.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,979 Senior Member
    There have also been a number of cases of shooting children or other people with toy guns or pellet guns without taking any serious time to properly assess the situation.
    Someone points a gun (real OR fake) at you, you have a split second to decide & act, or die. Most LEOs I know WANT to go home at the end of their shifts.

    Don't want to get shot? Don't point a gun (real OR fake) at the cops, or don't act like you're pointing one at them. Sounds pretty damned simple to me :uhm:

    And guess what? You're no less shot if a 10 year old shoots you instead of a 20, 30 or 50 year old
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Someone points a gun (real OR fake) at you, you have a split second to decide & act, or die. Most LEOs I know WANT to go home at the end of their shifts.

    Don't want to get shot? Don't point a gun (real OR fake) at the cops, or don't act like you're pointing one at them. Sounds pretty damned simple to me :uhm:

    And guess what? You're no less shot if a 10 year old shoots you instead of a 20, 30 or 50 year old


    That all pretty well sums it up.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Someone points a gun (real OR fake) at you, you have a split second to decide & act, or die. Most LEOs I know WANT to go home at the end of their shifts.

    Don't want to get shot? Don't point a gun (real OR fake) at the cops, or don't act like you're pointing one at them. Sounds pretty damned simple to me :uhm:

    And guess what? You're no less shot if a 10 year old shoots you instead of a 20, 30 or 50 year old

    :agree: Many of the pellet pistols sold now mimic in almost EVERY DETAIL the pistols they mimic. If one is pointed at you and you take take the time to ascertain whether or not it is fake or real, you could be on the way to approaching ambient temperature. When you're told to "DROP THE GUN!" by the cop, it's a good idea to do so.

    Why the devil is it so hard?
    Do what the cop tells you to do.
    Do so slowly and deliberately so as not to cause him to suspect you're up to something.
    Why is that so hard to understand? Why is that so hard to do?

    In the days following the shooting in Charlotte, NC six white men were shot and killed; one was unarmed, shot in the back and killed. White folk didn't riot and burn down the towns and loot the many stores available. They didn't take to the streets demanding the dash cam and body cam video. They didn't go out and stop traffic on the highways. Why is that? What the hell drives this demand for instant justice and for all evidence to be turned over immediately and most likely misinterpreted by those who've already made up their minds no matter what the evidence shows? I'm way past being tired of this crap. I'm tired of the out of state agitators being flown/driven in to spin up the population and start the riots and looting. Over half the people arrested in Charlotte for rioting and looting were FROM OUT OF STATE! Let that sink in. Who is the man behind the curtains pulling the strings?
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    I thought this was going to be about another shooting in Sweet Home Chicago.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,528 Senior Member
    New ROE for cops....you can't shoot until you're shot at.....there. If you want to see how that works out...remember, our military has operated under those ROE in the past and a lot of guys ended up in body bags because of it...

    This asshat did everything he could to get himself killed.....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Mike the problem is that in many cases there isn't even a command given. Look up the Tamir Rice video. He was 12 and shot within 2 seconds of police arriving on the scene. The police calls specifically said the gun was probably fake and he was a kid. I know that's only one case, but it's a really bad one.

    Point a gun, real or fake at a cop, and you're going to have severe negative consequences. Read the part I put in bold type. The cops didn't know the pistol was fake. They didn't have time to ascertain that particular fact. Rice attempted to pull the pistol when the cops confronted him as soon as they showed up and he got shot. The cops didn't have time to do all the ordering of him to drop the weapon; he was in the act of drawing it. And as to Rice being 12 years old, maybe you should look up a few robberies/murders that were committed by 12 year olds. There are more than a handful. Don't give me that crap about 'he was just a kid'. A friend of mine from work was shot and killed by his own son because he grounded him for misbehavior. His son shot him with a .35 Remington from a Marlin lever action rifle. His son was barely past his 13th birthday. Just because they aren't of the age of majority doesn't mean that they can't or won't kill.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice

    The shooting of Tamir Rice, a 12-year-old boy (June 25, 2002 – November 23, 2014), occurred on November 22, 2014, in Cleveland, Ohio. Two police officers, 26-year-old Timothy Loehmann and 46-year-old Frank Garmback, responded after receiving a police dispatch call "of a male black sitting on a swing and pointing a gun at people" in a city park.[3][4][5] A caller reported that a male was pointing "a pistol" at random people in the Cudell Recreation Center. At the beginning of the call and again in the middle he says of the pistol "it's probably fake."[6] Toward the end of the two-minute call, the caller stated "he is probably a juvenile."[7] However, this information was not relayed to Loehmann or Garmback on the initial dispatch.[8][9] The officers reported that upon their arrival, Rice reached towards a gun in his waistband. Within two seconds of arriving on the scene, Loehmann fired two shots,[10][11] hitting Rice once in the torso.[4][12] He died on the following day.[13]

    Rice's gun was later found to be an Airsoft replica that lacked the orange safety feature marking it as a replica and not a true firearm.[14][15] A surveillance video of the shooting was released by police four days later, on November 26.[16] On June 3, the County Sheriff's Office released a statement in which they declared their investigation to be completed and that they had turned their findings over to the county prosecutor. Several months later, the prosecution presented evidence to a grand jury, which declined to indict.[17][18] A lawsuit brought against the city of Cleveland by Rice's family was subsequently settled for $6 million.[1]
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • rberglofrberglof Senior Member Posts: 2,744 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    New ROE for cops....you can't shoot until you're shot at.....there. If you want to see how that works out...remember, our military has operated under those ROE in the past and a lot of guys ended up in body bags because of it...
    .

    I have an x brother in law that is a Los Angeles Deputy Sheriff and that is what he told me, they have been told "You can't shoot until you are shot at".
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,807 Senior Member
    Mike the problem is that in many cases there isn't even a command given. Look up the Tamir Rice video. He was 12 and shot within 2 seconds of police arriving on the scene. The police calls specifically said the gun was probably fake and he was a kid. I know that's only one case, but it's a really bad one.

    When you finally get the level of restraint you want from cops, you're going to be hard-pressed to find competent adults who will sign up to do the job. As long as it is a badge of honor for poor, ghetto black folks to resist police, there are going to be tragedies. Civil order is not just the responsibility of police, it is the responsibiity of the citizens to support them. I think you will find that in the overwhelming majority, cops who were too quick on the trigger are punished....once a THOROUGH EXAMINATION OF FACTS has been made.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,979 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I think you will find that in the overwhelming majority, cops who were too quick on the trigger are punished....once a THOROUGH EXAMINATION OF FACTS has been made.
    Yep. As this one from this month in Ok shows
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/22/us/tulsa-officer-charged/
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,536 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »

    This asshat did everything he could to get himself killed.....

    He was mentally disturbed, and used a cop to kill himself.

    Why are we blaming the cop for that? He was the tool used by a coward to kill himself. We spend all this time telling people to not blame the gun when a mentally disturbed d-bag kills with a gun... But we blame the cop when he is the tool used?

    Nope. This cop was put in a no-win situation and is being blamed for the action of another.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Apparently all you have to do is make any movement that can be interpreted at reaching for your "waistband" and they can shoot you. Remember that 99.9% of the time people's hands are either at their side or in their pockets, which all are near your waistband.

    Watch the south park video. Hits a little close to home in a lot of these cases. Disobey an order...die. reach for your wallet...die. Have an unidentified object in your hand...die. make any sudden movements...die. have your hands anywhere near your waistband...die. cops bust into your house unannounced in the middle of the night and you don't act 100% like a sheep...die.

    Nope those aren't the kinds of rules of engagement I want our cops operating under.

    Jumpin' Jesus on a pogo stick! Did you read the part that said HE WAS REACHING FOR A PISTOL IN HIS WAISTBAND???!!! What part of eminent threat is giving you heartburn? Are you telling me that anyone can tell the difference between a real pistol and a pellet gun stuffed in someone's waistband as they are reaching for it to pull on the cops? Seriously?

    The kind of ROE you wish for the cops to use will get them killed en masse just like the ROE in Afghanistan and Iran is getting soldiers killed.

    And lets get something straight right out the gate. The cops have rules of engagement that involve several steps before deadly force is used. And those steps DO NOT have to be followed in sequence. Each situation is different and steps can be skipped depending on the particular circumstances of that situation. If someone is shooting at the cop it would be rather silly for him to tell them to drop the gun and put his hands up.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Jumpin' Jesus on a pogo stick! Did you read the part that said HE WAS REACHING FOR A PISTOL IN HIS WAISTBAND???!!! What part of eminent threat is giving you heartburn? Are you telling me that anyone can tell the difference between a real pistol and a pellet gun stuffed in someone's waistband as they are reaching for it to pull on the cops? Seriously?

    The kind of ROE you wish for the cops to use will get them killed en masse just like the ROE in Afghanistan and Iran is getting soldiers killed.

    And lets get something straight right out the gate. The cops have rules of engagement that involve several steps before deadly force is used. And those steps DO NOT have to be followed in sequence. Each situation is different and steps can be skipped depending on the particular circumstances of that situation. If someone is shooting at the cop it would be rather silly for him to tell them to drop the gun and put his hands up.

    I guarantee you, if I'm a cop or just a civilian like I am, if some **** is pulling something out of his waste band and it looks like a gun and he appears to want to use it on me or my friends or family, the **** is in deep doo doo. Like the saying goes, "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6 anyday!!!"
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,528 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I guarantee you, if I'm a cop or just a civilian like I am, if some **** is pulling something out of his waste band and it looks like a gun and he appears to want to use it on me or my friends or family, the **** is in deep doo doo. Like the saying goes, "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6 anyday!!!"

    The problem is...you're not going to be tried by 12..you're going to be tried bythe media, special interest groups like BLM and by politicians.....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    "I AM THE LAW"

    Disobeying me is a death sentence

    This apparently does seem to be the case on occasion. Here's a story from last year. http://www.newser.com/story/231827/video-shows-cops-mistakenly-shooting-6-year-old-boy.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=earthlink&utm_campaign=rss_topnews After a fight with his girlfriend in a bar, this guy ran from the police and as his punishment, the officers put 18 rounds into his car when he stopped.

    This came up again because the police video was just recently released and this happened in September of 2015. When the officers decided to spray the car with bullets, they didn't know that there was a child in the passenger seat that they shot to death.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    Apparently all you have to do is make any movement that can be interpreted at reaching for your "waistband" and they can shoot you. Remember that 99.9% of the time people's hands are either at their side or in their pockets, which all are near your waistband.

    Watch the south park video. Hits a little close to home in a lot of these cases. Disobey an order...die. reach for your wallet...die. Have an unidentified object in your hand...die. make any sudden movements...die. have your hands anywhere near your waistband...die. cops bust into your house unannounced in the middle of the night and you don't act 100% like a sheep...die.

    Nope those aren't the kinds of rules of engagement I want our cops operating under.

    Obey an order - don't die. Don't reach for your wallet - don't die. Don't have an unidentified object in your hand - don't die. Don't make sudden movements - don't die. Keep your hands up or away from your waistband - don't die. Cops burst in your house unannounced, act like a sheep and **** - don't die.

    If you don't want cops operating under these rules of engagement, stop shooting cops, stop using drugs, stop getting drunk in public, commit no crimes, behave yourself, and lo & behold, when folks just stop being polarized, militant, radical jerks, nobody gets shot.

    We the people determine the rules of engagement. The police are reactive to the stimuli we provide. When the culture swan dives off the social-contract cliff, it's going to get rough. And when the culture lands in a hole and keeps digging, the police necessarily become pro-active, and then watch out! Most cops in Britain are still unarmed - that's because the average garden-variety Briton is somewhat well-behaved, obedient, unprovocative, and cooperative. But the officers in Northern Ireland are all armed. They have to be, just like ours.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    I find it hard to believe that so many people who claim to support the Constitution support these kinds of policies.

    Maybe you need to reread the 4th and 5th amendments to the Constitution.

    The number of citizens executed by police each year is far too high imho. Last year the number was 1,199. No doubt some or even many if them were direct threats, but certainly not all. For fairness the number of cops killed was 42.

    I know what the 4th and 5th Amendments say, and they are being severely curtailed by the control freak Democrats AND Republicans in the Congress.

    BUT neither amendment addresses the repercussions that will happen when one pulls a firearm on a cop or a private citizen and gets well and fully ventilated for their trouble. Neither do they address running from the cops in a vehicle and when finally pulled over, making movements inside the vehicle that would make an ordinary person or cop suspect that they were digging out their own firearm to 'tune up the cops'. How about just putting your hands in plain sight slowly before the cop has to tell you to do that? How about BOTH HANDS at 12:00 o'clock on the steering wheel when the cops approach and make no furtive movements that make the cops suspect that you're reaching for a weapon? Nothing hard about not acting stupid, unless one is just a jerk with a chip on their shoulder. If one has done something monumentally stupid that makes the cops approach with weapons drawn, it's pretty much a no brainer not to act in a way that makes them think you're about to attack/shoot/cut them. Problem is, lots of people gots no brainz!

    As many contacts cops make with people on a daily basis, some in the worst of circumstances, mistakes will be made. Cop's fault, citizen's fault, nobody's fault. It happens, and if you give the cops reason to think you're about to shoot, cut, or beat on them, they will oblige with appropriate force, and sometimes excessive force. Don't go about interacting with cops like one is a rabid dog out to bite anyone in reach and things will theoretically go a lot smoother. Of course, I could be wrong.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    I find it hard to believe that so many people who claim to support the Constitution support these kinds of policies.

    Maybe you need to reread the 4th and 5th amendments to the Constitution.

    .

    Please expound on this. I'm all eyes.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Or how about people that don't want to get shot obey the lawful orders of the police? If someone walking around on the street doesn't understand that due to diminished capacity, maybe they should not be on the street in the first place.

    Now there's a thought.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,807 Senior Member
    Yep, great solution to our problems of mental illness, just have the cops shoot anyone acting weird in public. Problem solved.

    You being a life-long liberal, I understand your compulsion to make new laws to cover every single 'slight' that a person could possibly suffer. You can't help it.

    But...after you craft a code of behavior that a cop will need a Harvard lawyer to interpret, he is still going to be expected to maintain order, and he will still need weapons to back him up, and there will still be un-codified behavior for him to deal with, from the mentally ill, as well as from the terminally stupid, and from the misguided 'martyrs for the cause. '

    Don't you think that, at some point, the victims should be taught to submit to authority, so that they can live long enough for a lawyer to come save them and have the offending cop remanded to the custody of his own lawyer? That way, we can create a demand for even more lawyers and judges who can then negotiate away all common sense, in favor of ever more blatant absurdities. Great fun for all of us observers out here in flyover country, who get to watch it all on satellite TV - very (Monty) Python-esque.
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