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samzhere
Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
What do we do about illegal immigrants?
samzhere
Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
Last night in the debates, Newt said that there should be a pathway for some illegal immigrants to gain legal status. This has set off a Republican vs Republican debate, which is fine -- let's hear what the candidates have to say.
So I ask, what the heck do we do, really, about illegal immigrants? Here are some of my thoughts...
First, and this is essential, there can be NO legalization steps until the borders are closed tight. I don't care if it takes a huge physical wall, National Guard troops on the border, or whatever, but we first must put a halt to any further illegal entries.
After the borders are secured, and not before, I DO think we can establish a pathway for SOME illegals already here to gain "green card" status. Some reasons:
No, CRIMINAL illegals are not welcome, ever. Send them home after completing long prison sentences for whatever they did. At no time to I condone allowing criminal illegals to remain.
And sure, you say, the very act of coming here illegally makes them criminals, but that's semantics. I of course mean crimes committed after they're here.
And frankly, there's simply no way we can send 12 to 20 million illegals home. It's just not workable.
I think that AFTER the borders are closed, law-abiding illegals should be required to register. Not doing so will get them deported. But registering -- assuming they haven't committed a crime -- will guarantee they are NOT deported.
The idea is to get these people into the system of laws and rules. Example -- uninsured and unlicensed drivers are a huge problem here in Texas, as in all border states. Why? Duh, if you're illegal you can't get a driver's license or easily get insurance. Any act that puts your name on a list, anywhere, threatens your invisibility. So we citizens are forced to pay large premiums for uninsured motorist coverage. That's just one example.
Another is that illegals are easy targets for predators. Many work far below minimum wage and have no legal recourse if treated unfairly at jobs. Women illegals are often assaulted and raped, and they fear going to the police.
Regardless of the type of predation, illegals are outside the system and therefore learn to mistrust police. And this can lead the younger ones into a life of criminal behavior.
Also, illegals aren't paying their fair share of taxes. And those who employ them are also cheating on taxes, which increases the burden for others.
I see no reason, in a realistic way, that law abiding illegals cannot be required to register for future "green card" status, in a sort of preliminary green card system, where if there are no problems, they're fully legal in, oh, 2-3 years.
Sure, in a magically idealized situation, we can wave a magic wand and poof, illegals would disappear. But that's not the real world.
Okay, I've tossed out some ideas here. What are yours?
So I ask, what the heck do we do, really, about illegal immigrants? Here are some of my thoughts...
First, and this is essential, there can be NO legalization steps until the borders are closed tight. I don't care if it takes a huge physical wall, National Guard troops on the border, or whatever, but we first must put a halt to any further illegal entries.
After the borders are secured, and not before, I DO think we can establish a pathway for SOME illegals already here to gain "green card" status. Some reasons:
No, CRIMINAL illegals are not welcome, ever. Send them home after completing long prison sentences for whatever they did. At no time to I condone allowing criminal illegals to remain.
And sure, you say, the very act of coming here illegally makes them criminals, but that's semantics. I of course mean crimes committed after they're here.
And frankly, there's simply no way we can send 12 to 20 million illegals home. It's just not workable.
I think that AFTER the borders are closed, law-abiding illegals should be required to register. Not doing so will get them deported. But registering -- assuming they haven't committed a crime -- will guarantee they are NOT deported.
The idea is to get these people into the system of laws and rules. Example -- uninsured and unlicensed drivers are a huge problem here in Texas, as in all border states. Why? Duh, if you're illegal you can't get a driver's license or easily get insurance. Any act that puts your name on a list, anywhere, threatens your invisibility. So we citizens are forced to pay large premiums for uninsured motorist coverage. That's just one example.
Another is that illegals are easy targets for predators. Many work far below minimum wage and have no legal recourse if treated unfairly at jobs. Women illegals are often assaulted and raped, and they fear going to the police.
Regardless of the type of predation, illegals are outside the system and therefore learn to mistrust police. And this can lead the younger ones into a life of criminal behavior.
Also, illegals aren't paying their fair share of taxes. And those who employ them are also cheating on taxes, which increases the burden for others.
I see no reason, in a realistic way, that law abiding illegals cannot be required to register for future "green card" status, in a sort of preliminary green card system, where if there are no problems, they're fully legal in, oh, 2-3 years.
Sure, in a magically idealized situation, we can wave a magic wand and poof, illegals would disappear. But that's not the real world.
Okay, I've tossed out some ideas here. What are yours?
Replies
I'll say my short list, which would be similar to yours:
1) Enforce existing immigration law.
2) Close borders.
3) Force American business to stop hiring illegals.
4) Stop inviting them here by providing free stuff courtesy of taxpayers.
5) End policy of automatic citizenship for children of illegals born here.
6) Automatic deportation of illegals arrested for crimes. If they are caught again, 10 years in prison.
Once the rest of the country grows some balls and follows the example of Alabama and Arizona, the illegal problem will be a lot easier to solve!
Jerry
yes we need to stop the auto-citizen but unfortunately this has been interpreted as constitutional per post-Civil War amendments. So it's not just a law passed by congress that can easily be repealed. Only way to stop this would be a new amendment, never an easy thing.
Preventing businesses from hiring illegals is of course needed. AFTER the borders are closed, illegals already here MUST register and obtain a "prelim" green card -- some sort of ID. And they cannot be hired without this and we really fine the heck out of people who do hire them.
There are conditions on what I'd want to do, of course. Illegals already here who now start the legality process can NOT bring any family here until they successfully get their official green card, and then, only if the new immigrant is a true minor dependent (no aunts or grandmas) or has a job waiting. For poor old Auntie Josie, money can be sent to help them back home, as is now done a lot.
Of course, one of the first things these new immigrants registering need to prove is prior citizenship and some sort of paper trail. And yeah, there would be fraud but it's better than what we have now.
All you have to do is drive thru a heavily Hispanic immigrant area, and you see tons of signs up "Notary Public" (in Spanish). Thing is, in Mexico, a notary is a minor legal official who can help with things like permits and licenses. Here, no such thing but these "notarias" cheat immigrants who think they're getting real legal help.
The whole thrust of my point is to get these people into the system, legally, and get them paying taxes. And also get them into the habit of trusting cops. Lord knows they can't trust cops back home.
We're always told by liberals that ALL of these people are peaceful and only want work. Well, that's BS. Plenty of them are gang members or freelance thugs. But now, these criminals hide among the actual law abiding illegals, and the law abiding are afraid to do anything. So they are preyed upon by their own people with no real recourse here. What this does is embed into the younger kids a philosophy of criminal behavior and not trusting authority, because as illegals they have no recourse.
But if these folks are required to register, and (if they are otherwise okay) by registering are NOT allowed to be deported but are instead given legal protected status, then the criminal element will more easily be frozen out and exposed. Believe me, it will happen fast. If Manuel registers, expects the axe to fall, and instead is given a prelim green card, legal ID, and a brochure listing phones to call for legal help with being underpaid or treated improperly at work, receives ZERO hassle from the cops except a solemn warning that he's on "probation", Manuel will quickly learn that the US isn't the enemy ahd he'll tell all his pals. As soon as it becomes clear this isn't a scam, these illegals will begin the process of full legal access to our system, all the better to become higher income taxpayers and who aren't afraid to call the cops about the drug dealer on the corner.
I know that there are plenty of flaws in this "plan" but we've got to face reality. No way 12 million illegals will simply be deported. And we've GOT to find a workable way to get these people into the mainstream.
Teach is right about teeth in the immigration laws. Right now we've got Fed laws that aren't being enforced, then when states try to enforce them, the Feds file suit to prevent their own laws from being enforced. This is nuts. And what it's doing is driving more and more Hispanics into the Democrat camp. Sure, Hispanics tend to vote Democrat anyway, but if we can find a good way to "mainstream" the law abiding illegals, lots more will lean to the right, eventually. This is a natural result of having a decent job, a decent house, and earning your own way.
Police don't want to spend their time stopping all Hispanic drivers. It's a waste of their time when cops want to be focusing on the criminals.
But imagine after this "prelim" green card law is in effect. Immigrants are no longer truly "illegal" but just on "probation". They've got their new ID card and if they can walk a straight line, see ya. News of fair treatment would get around fast in the immigrant community "No kidding, the cop checked my ID and told me okay. You need to sign up, Jose. My new job pays me a dollar above minimum, too."
Parallel to this would of course be clamping down on people who hire non-ID illegals, and weeding out those who hadn't registered. If they don't have a new ID but are just scared, haul them down to the registration office and get them processed (of course ensuring there are no warrants, etc). Get them out the door and tell them "Now you're temporarily legal. That's your ID. Don't lose it or you may get deported. Come see us if you've got problems or questions, and get your pals in here to sign up."
Having these folks gain preliminary entry to the system would make a huge difference, positive to the economy and positive to their own immigrant economy. It would also provide a big lever to pry out the criminal element and isolate them from the now-legal-for-temporary immigrant.
Cut off the jobs and the free hand outs and believe me, they will go back home........Simple as that. But the politicians deal from the bottom of the deck and say one thing but in reality, they want instant voters by making them legal. It costs this country billions of dollars each year from paying out free stuff to Illegals. This has to stop immediately or this country is a gonner if it isnt too late now. Said me piece, so now back to the scheduled program........lol
meaningful discussion on the issue, at least at the federal level. Fortunately, some States are taking action on there own due to the cost of free everything .When the States start to assert there rights, a lot of issues including all forms of free stuff can be resolved. I don't see anyone on the current political stage with the STONES
to correct this issue totally. I don't think we will ever see any large scale deportations, a way must be found to get them to leave on there own.
Seems to me that there might be more important priorities out there?
The problem is the disproportionate amount of public funds they consume, from social services, law enforcement, medical care, and other drains on the economy, plus the almost total lack of input to the supply side of the economy through generating tax revenue. Basically, they're parasites. A few tapeworms are a tiny fraction of the host animal's body weight, but they can kill the host if they're not dealt with.
Jerry
Then deport the offenders swiftly and permanently, jail sentences are way too costly.
Every foreigner here in the U.S. now should have ID or be deported to their country of origin, let that country foot the bill for their deportation and bill that country for any expenses incurred.
In order to live here each immigrant should have a full signature profile on file with NCIC, and this must match their ID so they can work pay taxes and live a normal life.
Commit a crime, get deported permanently.
Perhaps the solution is not closing the boarder but sealing the leaks to illegal aliens / traffic and narcotics.
And deporting undesirables.
Well, dead, a good answer for a totalitarian society, North Korea or Iran maybe, but it's facile and unrealistic for the temperate way things are done in the USA. We just aren't that sort of country. BTW would you put the illegal children into hard labor workhouses too?
What you're asking for is tantamount to waving a magic wand -- an unrealistic solution to a very real problem. There is NO WAY that all illegals will be immediately deported. It's simply not going to occur.
I'm trying to look at the problem realistically. As a conservative and somewhat law abiding citizen, it rankles me to see so many illegals here. In Houston, as in most border cities, they drag down the working wage for low-end labor and raise the cost of driving, as most of them don't have licenses or insurance.
But here they are. And unless we take draconian measures, here they will remain. So I'm juggling in my mind as to how best to deal with the situation in a humane and realistic way.
My general idea is to 1) seal the borders first, 2) get the otherwise law abiding illegals into the system so they'll pay taxes instead of siphoning them off, 3) be very strict about law-breaker illegals, and 4) require some sort of "probation" so that legal immigrants aren't pushed aside in a way that rewards the illegals.
I fully admit that there is no genuine perfect solution to this problem. I'm just trying to discuss realistic ways to fix the mess and do the least harm to our society. How I see it is that we cannot continue to keep several million people in a shadowed lifestyle.
Doc, those are some good ideas. If I can attempt to summarize what you're saying, we need to draw a very sharp line between criminal illegals and those who broke the law coming here but otherwise keep their noses clean. Get the criminals out of here asap, and then we can handle the others.
Is that a fair assessment of your commentary? If so, I agree.
bruchi, it's not the number of illegals, it's the disproportionate cost and trouble caused. Yes there are more important priorities, such as the overall economy and radical Islamic terrorism. I'm just dealing with the illegal immigrant problem here. We can start other threads on other problems, as needed.
Yes, ID every alien here, those that refuse, deport them, immigration is not the problem, even the illegal type, as they do most of the jobs most folk will not do.
We need to reduce the cost related to immigrants too, those that refuse to have drivers licenses / insurance and yet they drive intoxicated and have accidents etc......
deal swiftly with them and deport them.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
I agree, snake. We've got to elect responsible legislators who will actually do something instead of just passing the buck.
The illegal alien problem is a difficult one because our politicans, both sides of the aisle, have let it get that way. We can't just round up all the illegals and ship 'em out -- maybe the Germans have some old, er, "prisoner" transport boxcars we could use?
Are you talking about military troops or just ordinary Chinese or Russian citizens? You're stuck on semantics -- "invaded" means a deliberate, organized effort by one government to send actual military into the other country, not private citizens. Mmm, I suppose you'd think that the sultanate in the Holy Land was being "invaded" in the 1920s-30s by all those pesky Jews escaping from Russia, too?
I do agree to cut off "free" gifts. The whole idea is to start an orderly assimilation of these illegals into the mainstream. They'd be free to go home anytime, too, if they didn't want to acquire ID cards, get car insurance and licenses. The sooner that these illegals are pushed into some sort of premiminary legal status, the sooner they start paying taxes and quit being burdens.
Just for grins, dead, tell me the LAST time that a national government went through the act of rounding up undesirables and sending them packing? I'm guessing 1937-38, Germany. Look how well that worked out.
The idea that we can simply force all these people to leave the country is fantasy, bar talk, like the Cubs winning a World Series. We can start a new thread "Wouldn't it be fun if..." and have fun chatting about imaginary and unrealistic behavior and you're welcome to start that thread. What I'm trying to talk about here are realistic and humane ways to deal with the problem. And I'm sorry, if you just look at the genuinely nonviolent illegals who actually did come here to find work and are not causing trouble, I cannot in good conscience stuff them in boxcars and send them off.
This being a political forum section, we can also start a thread "The Iranians will be nice and will not kill others or make nuclear weapons if we would just be nice to them." too. Oh wait, that's a Ron Paul thread... ha ha
Sam, i recall back in 1941 the US Government rounded up Japanese American Citizens and put them in camps.
I dont believe in rewarding someone for breaking the law. They are law breakers, not law abiders. If all states would enforce the immigration laws that are on the books and cut out job access, they would go back to Mexico on their own. If you dont believe that, look at how they run to another state when the one they are in cracks down on enforcing the laws that are on the books.Politicians would have us believe that making them legal would solve all our problems. When in reality, all thats doing is rewarding them for breaking the law and making more voters for them to stay in office.................Said me piece, now i'm done with this debate.
Jerry
There is no way around the fact that they are breaking the law and that is WRONG no matter how you look at it.
There is no way around the fact that they are breaking the law and that is WRONG no matter how you look at it.
There is no way around the fact that they are breaking the law and that is WRONG no matter how you look at it.
There is no way around the fact that they are breaking the law and that is WRONG no matter how you look at it.
There is no way around the fact that they are breaking the law and that is WRONG no matter how you look at it.
There is no way around the fact that they are breaking the law and that is WRONG no matter how you look at it.
7% is still a very LITTLE NUMBER, and some of this folks actually work for a living, some even pay taxes, perhaps there is a lot of drama and bias when it goes on how "HUGE" this problem is?
Alphasigmookie, Your high intelligence shows! Thank you for stating your views!
One point that all should know.....there are illegal immigrants here working from most of the countries of the world. If the southern border with Mexico COULD be successfully closed-and it cannot and never will be-we would control less than half the illegal immigration problem. (Re-read what Alpha has said!)
Every secret agent spying on our military-government-industrial complex since the end of WWII has entered the Country either by direct air flights into American airports or by illegal entry THROUGH THE CANADIAN BORDER! To date the one terrorists capable of committing an act of mass destruction since 9-11 entered through Canada, not the Mexican border.
IMO while the illegal immigration problem is serious especially to local governmental economies in some cases, and should receive intelligent attention, it is far, far from the major problems that we, as a Nation, face on an economic and political level..... about like "dogpecker gnats" hovering around your face IMO!
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Every time a state passes a law to do what the Federal Govt won't, the Justice Department takes them to court. That doesn't make any sense at all.
I get it, I mean why some folks think it is "Un-American" not to keep allowing the huddled masses into our country, but that time in our history is long gone. Just because they sneak in here ILLEGALLY they think we owe it to them to let them stay. They (illegals) are NOT American citizens and shouldn't the the rights under our constitution we do, period.
It is the most confounded mess I have ever seen. They do a little bit (that looks good on TV) of what needs to be done to secure our borders and stop way short of the measures needed to finish the job.
And no just because they made it in illegally, we shouldn't give them amnesty or let them stay because they had "Anchor Babies". Let them get in line like the rest of the world legally and apply. America lets more legal immigrants in than any other country in the world, as it is. We can't absorb or do we need Little Tommy Tucker, his twin brother and every other blank blanker like we could back at the turn of the 20th century.
I think we as Americans blew it for not doing something akin to the Marshal Plan with Mexico back when it could be fixed a whole lot easier. Could have made it a place people were trying to sneak into, a good place to live.
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
― Douglas Adams
1st is those ILLEGALS who are just trying to find a better life (on our dime). Some might be productive but still they strain our resources. Put them on a bus, plane or ship (cheapest way!) and send them back nicely but firmly.
2nd is the DANGEROUS ILLEGALS (drugs, thugs and such). They are not worth even thinking of as people ... Put them on a C130 and "drop them off" back in their country.
Close borders are safe borders for a reason. Immigration channels might be slow but if they want in go through it LEGALLY or get sent back.
- George Orwell
If they're "guest worker" it's a way to get them on the tax rolls and keep them on the books. Right now they're just in a shadow existence and that makes everyone but the predators a victim.
, the illegals who are trying to find a better life are not a strain on our resources IF they are legally employed and paying taxes. It's when they're off the book and being paid cash, then they need medical care for example, and clog up the ER for minor stuff because they can't go to a regular doc. They also drive uninsured.
I'm just saying that if we get the otherwise law-abiding illegals on work permits, with IDs, they then are no longer a drain on resources. They're now paying taxes (and their now-legal employers are paying proper tax too -- those jerks cheat on their fair share as well).
If they can't get work, mmm, okay, maybe then send 'em back. But it's pretty much a fact that the "honest" ones came here to work, and therefore likely do have a job of some sort.
Criminal illegals, the thugs? What about those big pumpkin launchers?