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.40 S&W Terminal Performance - Graphic!

ZeeZee Senior MemberPosts: 24,517 Senior Member
Warning: The following thread contains pictures and a link to a video that are graphic in nature. VERY Graphic! A pig dies on video. Do not click on the link if you don't want to see him die. This is in the PD Forum because it is NOT hunting!!! I kill a pig with a defensive gun and defensive ammo for the express purpose of testing them as such.

Friend called me this morning and said he had a boar in his hog trap. Asked if I wanted it. Alive of dead, I asked. Alive was the response. Hell yeah I wanted it!!

Grabbed my stuff and headed over to perform a proper terminal performance test. I chose to use the ammo that I carry on a daily basis. It would give me assurance that what I trust my life with will actually work.

I set up the camera and placed a 3/4" thick piece of plywood behind the cage to attempt to stop a bullet in the event of a pass through. The pig was very aggressive in nature which was beneficial to the test in simulating and adrenaline pumped adversary with ill intent on his mind. He was ramming the cage, popping his jaws, and biting the wire. Perfect.

Gun & Ammo
Perdition - .40 S&W w/ 4.25" Barrel
180gr Federal HST @ 1,030 fps Muzzle Velocity

Test
Terminal Performance on live tissue at 7 yards.
Assessment of physical reactions and time to incapacitory milestones.
Autopsy to assess internal damage caused by bullet.

.40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2031_zpsyamma0xx.jpg

Video (Graphic! Do not open unless you want to see a pig die.)
http://vid26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/lovinmycaitlynn/Hunting/.40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%202_zpsaaeykjkx.mp4

Results
4 Seconds from Impact to Blood Pouring out of Mouth
8 Seconds to Blood Spray Exiting the Entry Wound
14 Seconds to Animal Falling to the Ground
57 Seconds to Complete Incapacitation / Death

.40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2034_zpsmr0fymaq.jpg

I has a 4" square to thread the bullet through and hit the exact point on the boar as I was intending. Initially, he kept facing me. So, I had the rancher walk towards the cage and then to the left to encourage him to turn broadside. Once he did, I reached over, started the video, aimed, and fired.

.40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%204_zpsop2lyejh.jpg

Autopsy to follow.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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Replies

  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,392 Senior Member
    :up:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    I dont watch video's (Im on my phone) but from that last pic, it looks good that you got him. I think he was armed. :jester:
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    Again, The intent of this thread is to simulate the performance of a defensive round on a human analogue. Is the test perfect? No. But, it is a close and I can get to terminal performance testing to share with you and not go to jail.

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%206_zpshqe5h4dt.jpg

    Weight - 122 pounds

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%201_zpsmygmvb7g.jpg

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%202_zpsn01f7vfp.jpg

    Entry Through the Shoulder - Nicked rib on entry
    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%203_zpsbdxdywte.jpg

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%209_zpscfk08xzc.jpg

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2010_zpskz1tljh8.jpg

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2011_zpsodimftn6.jpg

    Internal Damage - The bullet passed through the front of the lungs and the juncture of the Lungs / Trachea / Heart
    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2012_zps1jlitg45.jpg

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2013_zpskirq7y4a.jpg

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2015_zpsr2a81sob.jpg

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    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2018_zpssimscyfx.jpg

    Exit - The bullet passed between two ribs tight behind the shoulder and lodged in the gristle plate on the off side. Penetrating a total of 14" of live tissue.
    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2020_zpslyd7hovd.jpg

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2023_zpsozn5bwdl.jpg

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2024_zpsfgrv5vzv.jpg

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2021_zpswztiqpk5.jpg

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2022_zpsc2xvzgeu.jpg

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2019_zpsc30bnxxw.jpg

    The bullet expanded and retained 100% of it's weight.

    We quartered the carcass for consumption and dumped the remains in the ranch pit. Stopping to place some affection on his pet doe who has twin fawns at the moment.

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2039_zpsi6xyurzh.jpg

    After all............we are NOT savages!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    Nice! I'm guessing the adrenaline rush kept that boar alive as long as he was after the shot. And how did the guy manage to domesticate that beautiful doe? I had to ask.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    Rocketman wrote: »
    Nice! I'm guessing the adrenaline rush kept that boar alive as long as he was after the shot. And how did the guy manage to domesticate that beautiful doe? I had to ask.

    Raised her from a fawn.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Very nice and interesting results, the way the boar reacted may slightly mirror a crackhead or such intent on hurting you even after being shot. That 14 secs to hit the ground means even hitting vitals like a lung and cardio sack area he still had fight in him and if he had been a biped on crack I have no doubt follow ups would have been sent with no problems. Could you see any signs of hydrostatic damage? Subsonic pistol rounds are stoppers as your 1 shot shows but a DRT in carry guns like Perdition almost needs a central nervous system strike.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    I really dont believe anyone could ask for better than what that ammunition delivered. I think thats outstanding.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,392 Senior Member
    NCF, Having spent time with Zedrick on the range, I'm certain, in the event it had been a "biped on crack" you could count on 2,3,4 or even 5x the damage from the multiple shots.

    As I was once told by someone who knows both Zedrick and myself, "Don't shoot until YOU think they're no longer a threat, shoot until THEY think they're no longer a threat"

    I have no doubt Zee would have been firing until either the threat or the gun stopped, or until Zee was stopped
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    Very nice and interesting results, the way the boar reacted may slightly mirror a crackhead or such intent on hurting you even after being shot. That 14 secs to hit the ground means even hitting vitals like a lung and cardio sack area he still had fight in him and if he had been a biped on crack I have no doubt follow ups would have been sent with no problems. Could you see any signs of hydrostatic damage? Subsonic pistol rounds are stoppers as your 1 shot shows but a DRT in carry guns like Perdition almost needs a central nervous system strike.

    Four types of stops... only one is reliable.

    1. Electric. Turn of the CNS via brain or critical spinal hit. Hard to do. Only reliable immediate stop to a threat.

    2. Hydraulic. It does take time to bleed out and even then you have about a 90 second oxygen reserve.

    3. Mechanical. Bust a hip, pelvis, thigh bone, nerve to function, something that immobilizes. The threat may be stopped but is still dangerous.

    4. Force of will, "I give up." Most dangerous of stops as the threat may decide they do not give up and re-engage.


    Items two, three and four are why it is taught to, "Shoot until the threat has stopped." Only one and two result in death and "safety" , and even two is a danger until the threat has been deprived of oxygen.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    Heck, the pix are more graphic than the video!

    Very interesting, esp. to a non-hunter like me. I was pretty amazed at how long he kept going considering where you hit him.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    I might add, a perfect shot, documentation and analysis. Am I the only one that feels that a perfect shot like that, that does not immediately down that animal disturbing? For science Zee we need a .45 ACP and a 10mm.

    Thanks again for all the after work and documentation.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,392 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2022_zpsc2xvzgeu.jpg
    Can't complain about the bullet's performance. Looks pretty much identical to the "pretty ones" Federal shows after gel tests and my wet paper tests. Plus, 14 inches is pretty much the same penetration I got in the wet newsprint.


    edited to add: I just checked Federal's LE ammo website, they list 12" penetration into bare gel
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,571 Senior Member
    Excellent!
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,392 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    Am I the only one that feels that a perfect shot like that, that does not immediately down that animal disturbing?

    D
    Probably.

    I've seen, had more game than I care to remember that took 60-90 to fall over after being hit with rifles. Including a 50# yearling that had an exit would through the off shoulder I could put my first 3 fingers in without touching the shoulder blade.

    14 seconds from shot to collapse is better than a most deer I've shot with rifles (Excluding my Beowulf)
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    I might add, a perfect shot, documentation and analysis. Am I the only one that feels that a perfect shot like that, that does not immediately down that animal disturbing? For science Zee we need a .45 ACP and a 10mm.

    Thanks again for all the after work and documentation.

    D

    I won't call it disturbing ... more like enlightening. It gives an insight into the thought that one shot stops from an average carry gun aren't as easy as some think. I might be assuming wrong but Zee took what amounts to a center mass shot not a shot to strike the central nervous system and limited to one to see the results. I am sure he could have hit the spine in a couple places or even a head shot. The way I read his analysis was on bullet performance and times related to the stages of incapacitation. Handguns in general are bottom of the rung on stops ... speed and hydrostatic damage from a long gun like his Ruger Scout creat the wound cavity that shortens those hits that are not on the central nervous system ... might take a full clipazine ... thinking about actual % of hits and actual good hits.

    That boar had a will and only was going to stop by short circuit or blood loss ... much like a criminal bent on hurting you. I carry a 9mm and 45acp and this all be it brief display proves just 1 round ain't gonna be enough unless hit the spine, brain stem or cortex of the brain which is in an SD situation is freakin' hard to near impossible.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,571 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    I might add, a perfect shot, documentation and analysis. Am I the only one that feels that a perfect shot like that, that does not immediately down that animal disturbing?
    D

    Not at all. He didn't intend to do a one-shot stop to begin with
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    After hunting elk for 21 years I have no expectation of bang plop dead. Handguns are not reputed for extraordinary stopping power.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    I won't call it disturbing ... more like enlightening. It gives an insight into the thought that one shot stops from an average carry gun aren't as easy as some think. I might be assuming wrong but Zee took what amounts to a center mass shot not a shot to strike the central nervous system and limited to one to see the results. I am sure he could have hit the spine in a couple places or even a head shot. The way I read his analysis was on bullet performance and times related to the stages of incapacitation. Handguns in general are bottom of the rung on stops ... speed and hydrostatic damage from a long gun like his Ruger Scout creat the wound cavity that shortens those hits that are not on the central nervous system ... might take a full clipazine ... thinking about actual % of hits and actual good hits.

    That boar had a will and only was going to stop by short circuit or blood loss ... much like a criminal bent on hurting you. I carry a 9mm and 45acp and this all be it brief display proves just 1 round ain't gonna be enough unless hit the spine, brain stem or cortex of the brain which is in an SD situation is freakin' hard to near impossible.

    You Sir, are SPOT on with my intent and your assessment. I only WANTED one shot! So all could see the reaction of a GOOD defensive round in the right place and.............that it is still not completely adequate to our desires of immediate incapacitation. We are completely in agreement.

    This shows that, even with a central mass hit, a determined attacker (animal) has a fair amount of time to inflict damage to yourself or another.

    Shoot until the threat goes away!!!!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,913 Senior Member
    Very well done. My favorite write up of yours yet.

    A one shot drop from a handgun is not going to happen without a central nervous system hit. It's just the way it is. That's as good as you can ask for. Very enlightening. On a two legged target, you have the spine running vertically with the vitals instead or horizontally. One can hope that vital and CNS hits might happen simultaneously. Only way that happens on a hog is to take that shot while he's standing and facing toward the shooter. Multiple hits might have helped overwhelm the system a bit better. Or might not. But it confirms, handguns are not the best at stopping a threat. But they are way easier to carry and will do the job when the rounds hit the right places.

    Remember that when you hear the "why couldn't they just shoot him in the leg" crap....
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    early wrote: »
    Handguns are not reputed for extraordinary stopping power.

    Defensive rounds in a concealable platform, exactly.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    Still gives a baseline to a human threat. Explains why cops are taught to do double, triple taps and even more. I was also surprised that pig lasted that long with a damn near perforated heart and lungs.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    A one shot drop from a handgun is not going to happen without a central nervous system hit. It's just the way it is. That's as good as you can ask for. Very enlightening. On a two legged target, you have the spine running vertically with the vitals instead or horizontally. One can hope that vital and CNS hits might happen simultaneously. Only way that happens on a hog is to take that shot while he's standing and facing toward the shooter. Multiple hits might have helped overwhelm the system a bit better. Or might not. But it confirms, handguns are not the best at stopping a threat. But they are way easier to carry and will do the job when the rounds hit the right places.

    Remember that when you hear the "why couldn't they just shoot him in the leg" crap....

    Well said, my French Model.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Thanks once again Zee. Great post.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    Could you see any signs of hydrostatic damage?

    Considerably less bruising to the lungs which denotes less temporary cavity (hydrostatic expansion) as compared to a high velocity rifle round.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    IMG_9405_zpswjclre3x.jpg

    IMG_9410_zpslyz3ctvy.jpg

    IMG_9409_zpsxyvi61en.jpg

    IMG_9408_zps3squkbvd.jpg
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    Damn, that could be a very long 14 seconds.

    57 seconds to clinical death is pretty quick, we have shot pigs in the head at powder burn distance with a .22 rifle and had them hang on that long, even after shoving a knife in their throat.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,131 Senior Member
    The bullet did exactly as you can hope it to. You can't fault it at all. It disturbs me that it took 14 seconds to go down. A bad guy can do a whole lot of hurt in those 14 seconds.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,571 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    The bullet did exactly as you can hope it to. You can't fault it at all. It disturbs me that it took 14 seconds to go down. A bad guy can do a whole lot of hurt in those 14 seconds.

    That's why you don't aim for the lungs.
    Maybe that was Zee's point all along...
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    That's why you don't aim for the lungs.
    Maybe that was Zee's point all along...


    I'm not saying that one shouldn't aim for the lungs. Just not a low thoracic cavity POA. Remember that 6" box sets high in the chest for a purpose. It is located at the juncture of lungs/trachea/heart/spine to provide the quickest resolution to the situation in an attainable POA.

    And then............keep shooting until the threat goes away. This is likely not a "one and done" situation unless you are considerably fortunate.

    VTAC-P-1%20-%20Copy_zpshrmsgvwv.jpg
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Now that I got to study the pictures I see a lot less tissue "damage" than I would have expected. I wonder how a 155gr at higher speed would have done...


    Possibly. The 155gr HST runs 1,172 fps put of my 4" G23c and 1,291 fps out of my 5" 1911 in .40cal.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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