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.40 S&W Terminal Performance - Graphic!

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  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,940 Senior Member
    Just showed this to the wife, gave her something to think about, multiple rounds on target is better, probably is not going to be one and done.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Just showed this to the wife, gave her something to think about, multiple rounds on target is better, probably is not going to be one and done.


    :applause:
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    "Why did you shoot the deceased assailant 6 times, Sir?!?"

    "Because 5 wasn't enough and 7 would have been too many."
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,940 Senior Member
    Do the results from this test make you want to try other ammo/bullets?
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Do the results from this test make you want to try other ammo/bullets?


    Well........duh!!!!!

    :popcorn:
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Just showed this to the wife, gave her something to think about, multiple rounds on target is better, probably is not going to be one and done.

    That's exactly what I was thinking about - my wife needs to see this too.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,940 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Well........duh!!!!!

    :popcorn:

    Are you sticking with the load you shot the pig with?
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Are you sticking with the load you shot the pig with?

    Yes.

    Full Penetration but not Over Penetration
    Adequate Expansion
    100% Weight Retention

    What's not to love?







    I was honestly impressed with how much he bled. Out of his mouth, entry wound, and internally. Yes, it was 14 seconds to the ground for an agitated animal. But, that's 14 seconds from a concealable firearm with a controllable load that allows for multiple shots to be accurately fired. Yes. I am very pleased with the results. But, that does not mean I would EVER fire just 1 shot. Engage until the threat goes away.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Do the results from this test make you want to try other ammo/bullets?


    I would love to try my 9mm defensive load and my .45 ACP load.

    That means we gotta catch two more pigs of equal size.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I would love to try my 9mm defensive load and my .45 ACP load.

    That means we gotta catch two more pigs of equal size.

    These interest me as well.
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 8,145 Senior Member
    Damnit..............I dont normally look in the Personal Defense section so I missed this when you posted it up.

    From my point of view, any discussion about the efficiency of SD calibers/ammo is moot for obvious reasons. Having said that, this would have to be the most informative thread I have seen posted on the forum since I joined.

    Dont know if this helps with the science, but a few years ago in my PC days ( Pre Camera period) I shot a large boar. It was trotting along a track at the bottom of a gully about 90m ( 100yds) away crossing from my right to left and broadside on. I placed a 140gr sierra psp doing just under 2800fps in the exact same place as your POI. That boar kicked into high gear and ran approx 75yds before turning uphill, ran about 15 yds up the side of the gully, reared up on its back legs and fell to the ground kicking. The damage from the initial impact point was almost identical until the projectile reached its body cavity where it turned the heart, lungs into soup. The projectile then exited through the off side shoulder leaving a hole I could put my fist into.

    Looking at your pics and video gave me a sense of deja vue.
    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    180gr HST

    Left is from Water Test & Right is from the Pig

    Both retained 100% of their weight but the water bullet expanded more.

    180gr%20HST%20Left%20Water%20amp%20Right%20Pig%203_zpsjvk1g3fq.jpg

    180gr%20HST%20Left%20Water%20amp%20Right%20Pig%201_zpskw2qqaed.jpg

    180gr%20HST%20Left%20Water%20amp%20Right%20Pig%202_zps5u2tu25c.jpg
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,421 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Heck, the pix are more graphic than the video!

    Very interesting, esp. to a non-hunter like me. I was pretty amazed at how long he kept going considering where you hit him.

    Most everyone is surprised that animals and man keep moving after being shot. TV has ruined perception to one shot kills instantly,, NOT. Shoot the BG multiple times before you are 'safe'.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    pjames777 wrote: »
    Most everyone is surprised that animals and man keep moving after being shot. TV has ruined perception to one shot kills instantly,, NOT. Shoot the BG multiple times before you are 'safe'.

    This really drives the point home - definitely one of the most useful and educational threads I've seen to date!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,392 Senior Member
    Since you posted the water comparison, here's a wet newsprint of a 155 & 180 from a G22
    g22_zps67c58a9b.jpg

    and PM40
    Kahr1_zps17953955.jpg
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    Perfect! Thanks!!!!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,392 Senior Member
    YVW
    :beer:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,421 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Warning: The following thread contains pictures and a link to a video that are graphic in nature. VERY Graphic! A pig dies on video. Do not click on the link if you don't want to see him die. This is in the PD Forum because it is NOT hunting!!! I kill a pig with a defensive gun and defensive ammo for the express purpose of testing them as such.

    Friend called me this morning and said he had a boar in his hog trap. Asked if I wanted it. Alive of dead, I asked. Alive was the response. Hell yeah I wanted it!!

    Grabbed my stuff and headed over to perform a proper terminal performance test. I chose to use the ammo that I carry on a daily basis. It would give me assurance that what I trust my life with will actually work.

    I set up the camera and placed a 3/4" thick piece of plywood behind the cage to attempt to stop a bullet in the event of a pass through. The pig was very aggressive in nature which was beneficial to the test in simulating and adrenaline pumped adversary with ill intent on his mind. He was ramming the cage, popping his jaws, and biting the wire. Perfect.

    Gun & Ammo
    Perdition - .40 S&W w/ 4.25" Barrel
    180gr Federal HST @ 1,030 fps Muzzle Velocity

    Test
    Terminal Performance on live tissue at 7 yards.
    Assessment of physical reactions and time to incapacitory milestones.
    Autopsy to assess internal damage caused by bullet.

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2031_zpsyamma0xx.jpg

    Video (Graphic! Do not open unless you want to see a pig die.)
    http://vid26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/lovinmycaitlynn/Hunting/.40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%202_zpsaaeykjkx.mp4

    Results
    4 Seconds from Impact to Blood Pouring out of Mouth
    8 Seconds to Blood Spray Exiting the Entry Wound
    14 Seconds to Animal Falling to the Ground
    57 Seconds to Complete Incapacitation / Death

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%2034_zpsmr0fymaq.jpg

    I has a 4" square to thread the bullet through and hit the exact point on the boar as I was intending. Initially, he kept facing me. So, I had the rancher walk towards the cage and then to the left to encourage him to turn broadside. Once he did, I reached over, started the video, aimed, and fired.

    .40%20SampW%20with%20180gr%20HST%20%207yrds%20amp%201030%20fps%20mv%204_zpsop2lyejh.jpg

    Autopsy to follow.

    Great post. Thanks for sharing. My Sig 229 in .40SW is looking better all the time. Enhanced factory trigger and new laser grips make it a dependable assest for my old eyes.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Since you posted the water comparison, here's a wet newsprint of a 155 & 180 from a G22
    g22_zps67c58a9b.jpg

    180gr%20HST%20Left%20Water%20amp%20Right%20Pig%203_zpsjvk1g3fq.jpg

    What I see is that both water and wet news print (as well as ballistic gel) provide more resistance to the bullet and result in greater (prettier) expansion than the actual thoracic cavity. Which makes sense as both water and wet print are a consistent "viscosity" from start to finish. Whereas a live entity has skin and muscle and bone. But, the thoracic cavity itself provides less resistance. Resulting in less expansion from the low velocity of a handgun.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,977 Senior Member
    Great post, Thanks
    Jermanator wrote: »
    The bullet did exactly as you can hope it to. You can't fault it at all. It disturbs me that it took 14 seconds to go down. A bad guy can do a whole lot of hurt in those 14 seconds.

    True but as Zee stated if its a threat keep shooting,

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,392 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    [

    What I see is that both water and wet news print (as well as ballistic gel) provide more resistance to the bullet and result in greater (prettier) expansion than the actual thoracic cavity. Which makes sense as both water and wet print are a consistent "viscosity" from start to finish. Whereas a live entity has skin and muscle and bone. But, the thoracic cavity itself provides less resistance. Resulting in less expansion from the low velocity of a handgun.
    Which is why, as I've said before, I prefer my SD ammo to "over expand" in wet newsprint
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,543 Senior Member
    WOW. I agree with others that this is by far the most useful and interesting thing I've ever read here. Thanks very much for all of the work you put into this. :applause:
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,386 Senior Member
    More proof that cardiovascular kills take time - no matter what the delivery system is. My experience on unsuspecting deer WITH RIFLES says it's about ten seconds. To see essentially the same thing on a riled-up pig of about the same size with a pistol surprises me not at all.

    If you want an instant stop from a man-portable system that doesn't involve disrupting spines or brains, you're going to have to catch Captain Kirk on one of his time-travel adventures and steal his phaser.

    This is an AWESOME video guys - providing us with a modern version of what Thompson and Lagarde were doing in the 19-ohs. What it does is flush all of that Hollywood nonsense of "BANG! You're dead!" down the toilet and give you a real glimpse at what you can expect to see from your carry ammo. I'm no doctor, so I'm going out on a limb to say that this is doctorate-level stuff, but at any rate, Zee is giving us some GREAT science here. Get the man a camo lab coat!:up::cool2::applause::worthy::usa:
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    After thinking about this it might be a little different defending yourself against a human coming at you. Zee's shot was probably the best case scenario of a cross body shot hitting both lungs and the pericardial area. If a bad guy is coming at you head on your angle won't likely give you that much of a damage channel. You might get one lung or maybe the pericardial area with one shot ... kinda lends me to believe that "giving" an attacker a couple extra rounds is smart.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,517 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    After thinking about this it might be a little different defending yourself against a human coming at you. Zee's shot was probably the best case scenario of a cross body shot hitting both lungs and the pericardial area. If a bad guy is coming at you head on your angle won't likely give you that much of a damage channel. You might get one lung or maybe the pericardial area with one shot ... kinda lends me to believe that "giving" an attacker a couple extra rounds is smart.

    I agree and it was something I considered from the get go. The fact that it would be a dual lung shot on the boar. But, I could figure no practical way around it.

    So yes, this represents a "best case scenario". Remember, the results just get worse (as to time elapsed) from here, with a single lung hit. Respond accordingly!!!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,571 Senior Member
    Just shows how long it can take with an ideal shot, other than CNS, for someone to not be able to fight back.
    Makes marksmanship under pressure even that much more important if all you have is a handgun (And probably a lot of rounds):jester:
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,392 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    He's got a lab coat. But it's not camo.
    Hobbits are so small, they don't need camo. They kneel and hide under lizards :rotflmao:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,386 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    After thinking about this it might be a little different defending yourself against a human coming at you. Zee's shot was probably the best case scenario of a cross body shot hitting both lungs and the pericardial area. If a bad guy is coming at you head on your angle won't likely give you that much of a damage channel. You might get one lung or maybe the pericardial area with one shot ... kinda lends me to believe that "giving" an attacker a couple extra rounds is smart.

    The way to envision the human target is that it is impaled on a 3-4" diameter flag pole running from the bottom of the torso all the way up through the center of the head. No matter what the angle, you want to hit that flag pole. That gives you brain, spine, heart, aorta, vena cava, and trachea at a bare minimum. Angles other than the straight-on B-27 angle will add to that, but yes, absolutely continue to "share the love" - not only to increase the leakage, but to maximize your chances of connecting with one of those useful target articles.

    The best thing short of CNS hits is likely to be severing the aorta and carotids above the top of the heart. The heart will keep pumping under those circumstances - into NOTHING - which will tend to depressurize the system a bit faster than actually taking out the heart.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    Does make me wonder though. I saw a black and white video of a Nazi war criminal being executed via firing squad. The guy was blind folded and tied to a post with a target over his heart. 12, (yes 12) soldiers shot him all at once. He slumped over dead immediately. Granted it was 12 bullets, but they all achieved no more and no less of destroying the heart. Perhaps some are just more willed to survive? Hell if I know.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,131 Senior Member
    Rocketman wrote: »
    Does make me wonder though. I saw a black and white video of a Nazi war criminal being executed via firing squad. The guy was blind folded and tied to a post with a target over his heart. 12, (yes 12) soldiers shot him all at once. He slumped over dead immediately. Granted it was 12 bullets, but they all achieved no more and no less of destroying the heart. Perhaps some are just more willed to survive? Hell if I know.
    Straight behind the heart is the spine. That, and those guys were executed with full powered rifle bullets. They say they give one guy a blank round so their conscious can at least somewhat deny that they were responsible for someone's death, so that would make at least 11 rounds.

    11 rounds of 30-06/303 British/7.62x54 Russian/8mm Mauser aimed at centermass-- I would expect immediate death. Those rifle rounds are also going fast enough where hydrostatic shock becomes a big deal. The pistol rounds-- you don't get much of that.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
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