What welder for pin/weld of barrels?

JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior MemberPosts: 6,134 Senior Member
Simply put. What's the minimum size welder I could/should use to pin/weld AR barrels? My current knowledge of welding is minimal, but I believe TIG is the way we want to go, unless another method is suggested by those who know better (which is anyone...ha).

Thanks.

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“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
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Replies

  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    Keep in mind that IIRC (and I could be wrong) doesn't TIG put off a lot more heat than MIG?
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    What, exactly, is a PIN/Weld?:uhm:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,496 Senior Member
    Not really sure if I'm understanding the question, but why would you weld the barrel in place? Is that what you mean by pin?



    ETA: I would think virtually any welder would have the necessary amperage to do what you'll need... The question is; How well does it need to be done? More properly, how 'critical' is this weld? Are you just needing metal stuck together, or are looks going to be important? Is this just a need for a more 'solid' platform, or will the weld have to withstand stress, heat, etc.?

    Further ETA: I am NOT a welder, but I do play one on TV :jester:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    Stick weld, 6011 rods. Crank the amperage up and go to town.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,134 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    Not really sure if I'm understanding the question, but why would you weld the barrel in place? Is that what you mean by pin?



    ETA: I would think virtually any welder would have the necessary amperage to do what you'll need... The question is; How well does it need to be done? More properly, how 'critical' is this weld? Are you just needing metal stuck together, or are looks going to be important? Is this just a need for a more 'solid' platform, or will the weld have to withstand stress, heat, etc.?
    All who asked what I'm talking about...

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwi6_92wjuPPAhUFOSYKHTwRDzUQwqsBCC8wAQ&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA&sig2=rYCoI9ULLalApnl67m0S3w


    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,762 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    Stick weld, 6011 rods. Crank the amperage up and go to town.

    You are looking at those upside down. They are 1109's
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    An Oxy/Acetylene torch with a small welding tip and OA rod would be plenty to meet govco requirements.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,496 Senior Member
    Linkee no workee on my phone
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    Dead link here, too.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,496 Senior Member
    I take it that this is a government requirement to sell to various entities, but what does it do?
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,706 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »

    Why don't you just come out and say what you want to do or answer the questions asked? If you just want to make a spoogy little tack to comply with a law, get a cheap little 110v stick welder from Harbor Freight. If you want it to look better, get a cheap 110v mig welder. If you actually want to make a good weld on something, answer some of the questions that were asked.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,183 Senior Member
    I'm guessing you're going to be pinning and welding a flash hider on an AR 15 barrel less than 16" long to meet barrel length requirements per BATFEIEIO. A TIG welder capable of welding 1/4" steel will do what you need to do. I don't remember the amperage; I slept since then. :tooth: A welding supply shop can set you up with a welder, gas, and fill rods and help with the right size TIG machine.

    And if you don't know how to TIG weld, a VO-Tech school is the ticket for that! OJT on a TIG is an exercise in futility.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,706 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    I'm guessing you're going to be pinning and welding a flash hider on an AR 15 barrel less than 16" long to meet barrel length requirements per BATFEIEIO. A TIG welder capable of welding 1/4" steel will do what you need to do. I don't remember the amperage; I slept since then. :tooth: A welding supply shop can set you up with a welder, gas, and fill rods and help with the right size TIG machine.

    And if you don't know how to TIG weld, a VO-Tech school is the ticket for that! OJT on a TIG is an exercise in futility.

    If that's all he wants to do, a torch and some silver solder will achieve that with less heat and it is the most common method.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,134 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    Why don't you just come out and say what you want to do or answer the questions asked? If you just want to make a spoogy little tack to comply with a law, get a cheap little 110v stick welder from Harbor Freight. If you want it to look better, get a cheap 110v mig welder. If you actually want to make a good weld on something, answer some of the questions that were asked.
    Eat it.

    I prefaced the WHOLE post with admitting up front my knowledge of welding was minimal, therefore so are skill-set-related jargons.

    Second, the video answers the questions just fine.

    Third, you can still eat it. Don't be butt-hurt you don't know what "pin/weld" means. You can just not respond to topics and spare us the pain and suffering of interacting with you.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,134 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    I'm guessing you're going to be pinning and welding a flash hider on an AR 15 barrel less than 16" long to meet barrel length requirements per BATFEIEIO. A TIG welder capable of welding 1/4" steel will do what you need to do. I don't remember the amperage; I slept since then. :tooth: A welding supply shop can set you up with a welder, gas, and fill rods and help with the right size TIG machine.

    And if you don't know how to TIG weld, a VO-Tech school is the ticket for that! OJT on a TIG is an exercise in futility.
    Thanks for the advice. I'll heed it.

    I'm gong to need to learn one way or another. Outsourcing the jobs is cost prohibitive, unfortunately.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    TIG would be better. I have done some reading on pinning flash suppressor and they don't have to be welded around the barrel. Basically a hole is drilled through the threaded portion of the muzzle device and filled in with weld after installation. Number nine wire and a plumbers torch with MAPP gas should work, a small portable OA torch would be faster.

    A plumbers Acetylene torch would work great too.

    TIG is still best.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,134 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Dead link here, too.
    Jerry
    Sorry. Google-Foo error.

    32e7436e95628ff11e4a3369682c582a.jpg

    Drill a small hole in a muzzle device, thread on barrel to proper timing, use drilled hole as a political for drilling a small divot in the barrel, drop in a pin as pictured and tack weld in place. Grind smooth and such for aesthetics.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,134 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Sorry. Google-Foo error.

    32e7436e95628ff11e4a3369682c582a.jpg

    Drill a small hole in a muzzle device, thread on barrel to proper timing, use drilled hole as a political for drilling a small divot in the barrel, drop in a pin as pictured and tack weld in place. Grind smooth and such for aesthetics.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
    Politcal....pilot hole. Tapatalk refused to let me edit the post.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,706 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Eat it.

    I prefaced the WHOLE post with admitting up front my knowledge of welding was minimal, therefore so are skill-set-related jargons.

    Second, the video answers the questions just fine.

    Third, you can still eat it. Don't be butt-hurt you don't know what "pin/weld" means. You can just not respond to topics and spare us the pain and suffering of interacting with you.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

    There's some pretty skilled people here that don't know what your intention is. If you just came out and stated your intent, people could better gauge how to help you. I'm getting the impression that you're trying to start a business in an area that you are poorly skilled and prepared for. If you have issues with "the pain and suffering of interacting " with me, hike up your panties and block me.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,176 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Eat it.

    I prefaced the WHOLE post with admitting up front my knowledge of welding was minimal, therefore so are skill-set-related jargons.

    Second, the video answers the questions just fine.

    Third, you can still eat it. Don't be butt-hurt you don't know what "pin/weld" means. You can just not respond to topics and spare us the pain and suffering of interacting with you.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
    Uh, dude... your video link sucks. It won't open.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,183 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Sorry. Google-Foo error.

    32e7436e95628ff11e4a3369682c582a.jpg

    Drill a small hole in a muzzle device, thread on barrel to proper timing, use drilled hole as a political for drilling a small divot in the barrel, drop in a pin as pictured and tack weld in place. Grind smooth and such for aesthetics.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

    If I were you, I'd do a couple of tack welds on back of brake to barrel. ATF has been known to take a pipe wrench to barrels with that little pin welded in place and cranked the brake off by shearing the pin. When doing that kind of thing, you can't CYA too much!

    You CAN learn to weld by watching videos and doing a LOT of practice before tackling a real TIG welding job.

    I'm guessing you're in the Miami area? There are some schools down there that teach stick, MIG, and TIG welding, and if you're working a regular job, most of the Vo-Tech schools will work with your schedule.

    And I'm serious about the two tack welds on back of brake to barrel; get in touch with the local ATF and get the specs in writing to keep yourself clean. Same deal with the tack welds; make the welds and then Dremel and sanding drum smooth, and touchup blue.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,176 Senior Member
    Mike, some folks like to leave the weld a little "gloppy." Just to show it's welded. If you finish it too smooth... don't look like it's welded and they might think it's just screwed on.

    Now, if we didn't have such silly barrel length regulations, this would all be moot.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    Since virtually zero "gunsmithing" skills are required to assemble those tinkertoys, acquiring at least minimal welding skills shouldn't be a big problem. I'd grind a divot or two between the barrel and the brake with a cutoff wheel and fill the gap with a simple stick weld bead or maybe use a TIG, then grind and polish the bead to make it somewhat presentable. The whole "drill and pin" procedure just gives ATF an opening to bend you over a barrel and do it dry and painful.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,496 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib was asking the questions he was because your link didn't work and because he likely isn't a trained cryptographic specialist. As Sergeant Hulka would say: "Lighten up, Francis".

    TIG welding might not be required, but, in this instance I would use more than a silver solder which is more than likely all you would really need. As Mike pointed out though, sometimes too much is just enough. When working with any of the alphabet soup agencies sometimes is ALL the time. That said, have a look at the local big box...a 110V wire feed off the shelf won't make you wince when you swipe your card and will be plenty for what you're doing. Refill cylinders of ArCO2 are reasonably priced and the spools of wire won't make you question your choices either.

    If I can weld with a wire feed, virtually anybody can.

    ETA Read wire feed as MIG
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,346 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    If I can weld with a wire feed, virtually anybody can.

    ETA Read wire feed as MIG
    But if you haven't welded professionally, your opinion doesn't matter.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,183 Senior Member
    If I were doing it, I'd do like Jerry said with a cutoff wheel and make a couple of light cuts in the back of the brake, and then I'd go off the reservation and take a 1/16" arc welding rod to it. A couple of beads of tack weld will keep the hooligans from the EIEIO happy and not heat anything up excessively. And I'd use the same rod for the pin.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,496 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    But if you haven't welded professionally, your opinion doesn't matter.


    True enough. I apologize if i offended you. Nancy.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,807 Senior Member
    I think the distinction needs to be made between hobbyist, professional / duty grade work.

    As a hobbyist, I would be happy with silver solder as it is the simplest compliant form of pinning and welding. It's darn durable and there is an ATF memo I read somewhere that states silver solder is sufficient to pin a barrel. It could be made to look good and requires just the solder and a small heat source. It would not be a bad thing to have this skill set in your business.

    Professional / duty grade , I would think a steel weld is stronger and more durable and would likely hold up to more abuse. I would make it a selling point as well. It does require a real welder, and some skill / practice to weld well. I am not well trained and I can make a lumpy weld, but then again so can a monkey. If you want it tight and right you are going to need to invest the time to learn a repetitive skill that you can someday teach a worker and manage it.

    Ultimately, if I were in a business where I had to pin and weld, I would learn both and have both available to me.

    Silver solder will be softer than steel and will be easier to shape. Again you have to think about what you want your finish to look like. A proud weld location will definitely make the BATFE happier if you are inspected.

    Next will be finishing. I am sure silver solder will not "blue" , but steel of course take a cold blue better. Brownells makes a silver solder "black" to match it up without a painting process.

    Ultimately you are gong to have to try it and see what you like better for your product and how you can market it as a feature. Time is money. If you need an hour to pin and weld and finish a barrel that's like $50 of labor, overhead and materials in that one weld. That's a lot of money in an AR that sells for $800 at the gun shop.

    Determine what is the best, fastest, and marketable of the processes for your business.

    IMHO

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,134 Senior Member
    Uh, dude... your video link sucks. It won't open.
    Fair enough. But everyone else just said it didn't work, fishy went strait from zero-to-snarky.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,134 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    I think the distinction needs to be made between hobbyist, professional / duty grade work.

    As a hobbyist, I would be happy with silver solder as it is the simplest compliant form of pinning and welding. It's darn durable and there is an ATF memo I read somewhere that states silver solder is sufficient to pin a barrel. It could be made to look good and requires just the solder and a small heat source. It would not be a bad thing to have this skill set in your business.

    Professional / duty grade , I would think a steel weld is stronger and more durable and would likely hold up to more abuse. I would make it a selling point as well. It does require a real welder, and some skill / practice to weld well. I am not well trained and I can make a lumpy weld, but then again so can a monkey. If you want it tight and right you are going to need to invest the time to learn a repetitive skill that you can someday teach a worker and manage it.

    Ultimately, if I were in a business where I had to pin and weld, I would learn both and have both available to me.

    Silver solder will be softer than steel and will be easier to shape. Again you have to think about what you want your finish to look like. A proud weld location will definitely make the BATFE happier if you are inspected.

    Next will be finishing. I am sure silver solder will not "blue" , but steel of course take a cold blue better. Brownells makes a silver solder "black" to match it up without a painting process.

    Ultimately you are gong to have to try it and see what you like better for your product and how you can market it as a feature. Time is money. If you need an hour to pin and weld and finish a barrel that's like $50 of labor, overhead and materials in that one weld. That's a lot of money in an AR that sells for $800 at the gun shop.

    Determine what is the best, fastest, and marketable of the processes for your business.

    IMHO

    D
    We want to offer it as a service ultimately. And it's a skill I've wanted to dabble in for some time anyhow.

    The "pin and weld" method of compliance is industry accepted. Daniel Defense pins and welds their muzzle devices for the 16" OAL compliance.

    My plan, if all goes well, is to use an appropriate size inexpensive endmill to do a very shallow plunge cut into the barrel using the drilled hole in the muzzle device as a pilot. This will create a cylindrical hole and if the pin I make is cut squarely, when the pin sits in the divot it will be squarely sitting in the divot...no taper on the pin or divot due to a typical drill bit. Harder to shear with a long wrench.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
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