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Going hunting for a "loper" today.

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  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,961 Senior Member
    We have a lot of sharp pointy things on the ground here

    Ppppfffftttt! You forget, I lived up in your neck of Gods country. It ain't got nothing on my current slice of Hell in regards to "uncomfortables".
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,603 Senior Member
    So were you barefoot in a cultivated field (free of many sharp pointed things) or dancing on cactus while hunting those pigs???
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,961 Senior Member
    So were you barefoot in a cultivated field (free of many sharp pointed things) or dancing on cactus while hunting those pigs???

    A plowed field, of course!!! I ain't stupid!

    Well, not ALL the time.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,603 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    A plowed field, of course!!! I ain't stupid!

    Well, not ALL the time.

    I am glad you are growing wiser in your years.
    I guess it takes time to change old habits.
    But it is sort of entertaining watching the process, especially since you so willingly share it with us.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    Nice! I have new respect for the lowly .357.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • HogginHoggin Member Posts: 413 Member
    Heck in another forum their still saying it didn't do enough damage. :)
    :applause:

    Love doing the "impossible" with a handgun!
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,603 Senior Member
    I haven't had time to give the full story. Wrote this up late last night, early this morning. The facts are the facts, whether you like/agree with them or not.

    I made up my mind what I was going to use for Wyoming deer and antelope this year about a week before I would hunt. My 357 Magnum Ruger GP-100…AKA Franken-Ruger had only killed steel out to 500 yards. In fact, I had not shot it since that time. I knew I couldn’t use the 170 grain Sierra Tournament Master bullet that I had a 100 or so rounds loaded.
    After seeking the advice of several, I chose Hornady ammo, using the 158 grain XTP Hollow Point (.206 BC).
    Muzzle velocity is 1471 from my 15” barrel.
    The barrel is long on this, since it was special purposed for the 500 yard goal.
    For hunting I would probably go with an 8-10, if I did it all over again.
    But this sucker shoots so good, I don’t want to change anything on it. Dan Ekstrom, a good friend, zeroed it at 100 yards, and at the same time shot his smallest group ever with a revolver – 1.5” from the seated position using Bog-Gear tripod and the PSR top. He really likes that 357 Mag FR, to the point of being giddy.

    At 150 yards the impact velocity where I hunt antelope is 1161 fps, 175 yards=1124fps, 200 yards=1090fps, 225 yards=1061fps, and at 250 yards the impact velocity is 1035fps.
    So at 189 yards, the impact velocity is approximately 1100fps.

    It takes 16 MOA for a 250 yard shot and 10 MOA for a 200 yard shot with my 357 Mag FR.
    As a comparison, it takes 16.25 MOA for my 6.5 WSM XP-100 for an 825 yard shot.
    A 5mph full value wind at 200 yards with my 357 FR drifts 6.4 inches.
    A 5mph full value wind at 200 yards with my 6.5 WSM drifts .4 of an inch.
    My 158 XTP drifts 6 inches more than my 130 grain Berger.

    At 200 yards on game, I have never been concerned about a 5mph wind (until this week), while a 5mph wind at 200 is something I need to adjust for with my 357 Mag!
    This is where I made my big mistake on my buck antelope.
    My “wind brain” was switched to the “off position” when I was preparing to shoot my buck antelope.
    Like I said previously, a 5mph wind is nothing in my hunting world.
    I went through all of my other checklists to make sure, I was good to go, except wind correction. Full details at the bottom.

    The 158 grain XTP Hollow Point is designed to work in the velocity range from 700-1400 fps.
    http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/2009/19-22_bullets_handgun.pdf
    Just for giggles, an Impact Velocity of 700 fps is just beyond 800 yards. I know no one is going hunt game at over 800 yards with this bullet, yet it is designed to work at 700 fps.
    From Hornady, they say their bullet will work down to 700 fps.

    The working range of impact velocities is a HUGE advantage for the types of use I have been putting my FR through, and to date this bullet has been exemplary on two deer (40-50 yards frontal shot, and 154 yards [not my kill] broadside) and one antelope (broadside double shoulder shot 189 yards).

    Let’s talk about accuracy of this platform. When you have revolver capable of shooting a sub MOA group at 500 yards you have something special. This Franken Ruger is capable of that.
    When you can consistently make hits at 200 and 250 yards on steel with shots only a couple inches apart while sitting on the ground and using Bog-Gear-I’m a happy camper. The scope is a Leupold 2-8 VX-3 (1/4 MOA clicks) and it has more internal MOA than any other LER scope. I added 40 MOA through the Burris Signature Zee Rings to boot when preparing for my 500 yard challenge. Dialing to shoot is something I do all the time. Using drop charts is something I do on a regular basis. I use high quality Laser Rangefinders, so I can know my exact distance-not a big deal here.

    The revolver is capable, my field rest is capable, the ammo is capable, and the scope is capable. This leaves the variable of the shooter.
    Sometimes he is capable, and other times he is not. Isn’t this true of any type of hunting?
    Are 357 magnums capable of cleanly killing past 50 yards, 100, yards, 150 yards, 200 yards, and 250 yards.
    To date, I can personally say, “Yes” to 189 yards.
    The real proof of a bullet is what it actually does on game, not test gelatin, newspaper or water jugs.
    These other things can be good references, and be good for comparing.
    But, nothing is better than tissue and bone. It is the true test.
    That being said, I am not claiming these few kills are the all in all, but it is a good start, combined with some other data coming from guys who are using 357 FR’s and taking game out to about 150 yards on more than one occasion with good results.
    I am not saying, you should use one to hunt with.
    I am not saying you should hunt at distance with a revolver.

    Now let’s get to the shot. We had made a long stalk, and the two bedded bucks had no clue we were there. We were on a small saddle with a small hill to our right.
    The buck I was shooting at was not broadside, but partially facing away from me or quartering away with his head to my right. I was facing south and he was facing southwest. At the shot, I expected him to go down, but instead he got up. I saw, or thought I saw and impact behind him, and I asked if I shot high or Dan told me I shot high (can’t remember which). High was the call, and I trusted the call. I trust my spotter, and Dan does a good job. Both bucks were up now, but not sure where the threat came from, I pulled the hammer back, and aimed low from the call, and my shot went exactly where I was aiming from a vertical standpoint.
    My mind was racing, trying to figure out what was going on.
    At the same time both bucks began to slowly trot off to our right. I immediately grabbed my Bog-Gear and Franken-Ruger and ran to the right, got on top of the hill, and set up for shot # 3 if I get one.
    What we did not recognize at the moment was this: First shot was a hit, with the vertical being spot on, BUT as I have noted already, I was not holding off or dialing for wind. Shot one hit the front of the shoulder, and exited about the middle of the neck (Remember he was quartering away from me on the first shot). Shot #2 hit him also. I aimed low because we thought my first shot was high, and the second shot took hide off of the front of his leg.
    So far, two shots. First one probably would have killed him. Blood was filling up in the front of his chest cavity (we didn’t know this at the time).
    IF, IF, IF I would have accounted for wind, it would have been one and done at 247 yards.
    But that is not what happened. This has been burning on me since Monday.
    I was told I needed to aim high for shot #3, and I shot high and this time I clearly saw my impact.
    NOW, I knew where to aim. From the time of the first two shots at 247 yards, as they moved to the right, they were now at 189 yards, and he is broadside now. Right after the third shot, I pulled the hammer back, I had not adjusted from my 247 yard dope, but I knew where my last shot was, and just used the reticle. I knew he was dead now. All of this time. I had been aiming for a behind the shoulder shot. I wasn’t trying for a shoulder shot. Dropped him where he stood.
    My mind was still racing over the events of the last 30 seconds or so. Then Dan, says, “You shot him in the neck (speaking about my last shot).” I’m thinking to myself, “No way!” as I knew where I had been holding, but I could see blood all over his neck. I was not happy, but he was down.

    When we went down to him, Dan noticed the blood spray from the last shot was about 10 feet long. He couldn’t believe a handgun bullet could do that at 189 yards from a double shoulder shot, and he was right.
    What told the story was the autopsy. My two impacts on his shoulder were about 2” inches apart from each other, exactly side by side. One was from the first shot, that exited out his neck (The first shot), and the second one (Shot #4), basically centered (maybe a tad forward) on his shoulder, went through both shoulders, and broke a lot of bone on both sides, especially the off side. Part of the bullet was just under the hide on the offside. You can see it in the picture.
    When I hit him with the double shoulder shot, the pooling blood from shot #1 exited his mouth and his neck. The spray width and length was impressive.

    Folks, these are the facts. I was not nervous about this shot. I was pleased about our stalk and knew he was within my capability and the FR’s capability. I expected there to be one shot. I was sure I was going to kill him with one shot-I was wrong. Because I stayed on it, there was a good ending, teachable moments, and seeing that XTP wreak havoc was very pleasing.
    The field rest was sufficient, the gun was sufficient, and the ammo was sufficient, the rest of my shooting skill set was sufficient, but the wind part of my brain was not.
    I will not forget those 30 seconds. It has humbled me and taught me.
    Would I attempt another 250 yard shot all over again in the same conditions?
    Yes, in a heartbeat I would. I promise you though, I would be checking the wind.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,961 Senior Member
    Hoggin wrote: »
    Heck in another forum their still saying it didn't do enough damage. :)

    That place is quite inundated with dumb-assery and proliferates outdated dogma. A cesspool of inbred thinking, they are their own worst enemy. Perpetuating there downward spiral into a Oblivion because they are unwilling to except any new thought or concept.

    It is quite sad and unfortunate.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,603 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Nice! I have new respect for the lowly .357.
    Pics don't do it justice. I am very pleased
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,603 Senior Member
    Bullet, what was left of it on the offside of the shoulder, just under the skin of the meat.
    F5BD199B-0DF9-4E55-BBD8-F2E33ABC84DD_zpsdlz34cqe.jpg
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,603 Senior Member
    That is a very extensive wound channel, especially from a revolver at that distance.
    My thoughts as well, but when a bullet hits bone, the bone itself also creates trauma as well.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,384 Senior Member
    Fantastic performance, I need to shoot my .357 more.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Ernie, my .357 is a Model 586 S&W with 8 3/8 inch barrel. I'm very happy you put this thread up because it's given me more confidence in my revolver. Now I may well get serious about killing a deer with it. I've talked about it, but I was hesitant to try because of the BS I've heard about it. But when I saw your wound channel that did it. You convinced me the .357 is a formidable enough cartridge to do in Bambi and in style. I don't have a scope on mine and I really don't want to try the shot you did. But there's plenty of opportunity where I hunt to take a 50-100 yard shot. I'm also confident enough to try that with the open iron sights I have. I shoot this gun better than any other hand gun I've tried except one friend's 586 with 6 inch barrel. That one I shoot a little better than with mine, but not much better. Anyway, you can bet I'll have her strapped on my side and loaded with some 158 grain Jacketed Hollow Points when I go hunting opening day this November 5th. And if I see a doe within 50-100 yards I'm taking the shot. But I'm open to any advice from you.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Ppppfffftttt! You forget, I lived up in your neck of Gods country. It ain't got nothing on my current slice of Hell in regards to "uncomfortables".

    I bet I got ya both beat in the "Hell" department. Not only do we have PLENTY of the stationary type Pointy Sticky stuff, we have some that Crawls too!!! You can call me Wimpy, but no way I'm even getting out of the car without thick boots on. I ain't into pain!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • bellcatbellcat Senior Member Posts: 1,934 Senior Member
    If it's brown it's down!
    "Kindness is the language the deaf can hear and the blind can see." Mark Twain
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,603 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    That place is quite inundated with dumb-assery and proliferates outdated dogma. A cesspool of inbred thinking, they are their own worst enemy. Perpetuating there downward spiral into a Oblivion because they are unwilling to except any new thought or concept.

    It is quite sad and unfortunate.
    94900FCD-A138-4363-AFAD-6E3A2C768A59_zpswnloyj37.jpg
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • HogginHoggin Member Posts: 413 Member
    What we really need to do now in the name of science is try to proven bullets in a somewhat side by side test. Similar distance. Similar animal. Same gun.

    Many of my customers run a 158 xtp flat point or a similar Bullet in factory ammo.

    Vs

    The 158 xtp hp

    All for information purposes of course.
    :applause:

    Love doing the "impossible" with a handgun!
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