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Trump - flag burning should be loss of citizenship or jail

CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior MemberPosts: 5,486 Senior Member
I just realized something: Trump is playing a caricature of what he believes is the typical republican.

Talk of registering Muslims, border wall building, pro 2A, and now severe punishment for flag burning. Obviously he won't do any of this, but he's captured the FoxNews viewers' attention.




http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/trump-flag-burning-231920
When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

Adam J. McCleod


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Replies

  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Classic "Art of the Deal" tactics. He literally wrote the book on this subject. Make an outrageous original proposal the opposition will not even consider, then negotiate from that position to get a better outcome than a more moderate beginning could achieve. It works in business, but most conservative politicians are too timid to use that kind of approach and it floors the liberals to have their own ammo turned back on them.
    Jerry
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Businessmen are just politicians with all the padding removed. Despicable, unscrupulous azzoles in both cases, but the business guys don't make a big show of hiding their true colors!
    :roll:
    Jerry
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    I just realized something: Trump is playing a caricature of what he believes is the typical republican.

    You are 7 months late with this realization. I posted this, in March:
    Trump is trying to be a conservative, whether permanently or just to get the nomination, I can't honestly say. But the problem he has is that he has been a liberal Democrat for so long that he is still buying in to the Democrat narrative of what a conservative is. So, when he thinks he is acting like a conservative, he is really just acting like the liberal caricature of what a conservative is. It has to be very confusing.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    So he basically took Hillary Clinton's position on the subject and opposed Scalia's?


    Gotcha.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    So he basically took Hillary Clinton's position on the subject and opposed Scalia's?


    Gotcha.

    Scalia said he would put all the sandal wearing flag burners in jail if it were up to him, they just said in TV, however he has to support the constitution and the 1st A.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Scalia said he would put all the sandal wearing flag burners in jail if it were up to him, they just said in TV, however he has to support the constitution and the 1st A.
    Exactly.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Exactly.

    I know, as much as I hate to see our flag disrespected/denigrated like that, it IS their right.

    If someone tried to put NAZI or Commie flags everywhere I may wanna burn one myself............
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 12,041 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    I know, as much as I hate to see our flag disrespected/denigrated like that, it IS their right.

    If someone tried to put NAZI or Commie flags everywhere I may wanna burn one myself............

    And you should have that right.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • roadkingroadking Senior Member Posts: 3,056 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    And you should have that right.

    It would be your right if it was your flag...otherwise you are destroying someone else's property.
    Support your local Scouts!
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Don't get me wrong, I find it disrespectful to all the people that have fought, served, and died under our flag but having the ability to burn a flag as a form of protest reinforces the ideas that that same flag represents.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 12,041 Senior Member
    roadking wrote: »
    It would be your right if it was your flag...otherwise you are destroying someone else's property.

    Yes, should have been more clear on that
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • GunnerK19GunnerK19 Senior Member Posts: 1,095 Senior Member
    But burning a Rainbow/LGBT flag is a "Hate Crime".
    I'm a Conservative. How conservative? Only Alex P. Keaton has me beat.

    Taurus 605 .357, Ruger .45 Vaquero, Colt frontier commemorative .22 SA, Pietta 1860 .44 snubnose
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    GunnerK19 wrote: »
    But burning a Rainbow/LGBT flag is a "Hate Crime".
    I had to look that up....
    http://www.towleroad.com/2016/04/pride-flag/
    Wow! That is stupid. The guy should have been convicted of stealing someone's property, but a hate crime is silly.

    I have never been a fan of hate crimes. It is either crime, or not crime.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    I don't see any problem with the free speech part. However, if a fight breaks out due to the burning of the flag, I think the flag burners should be subject to being charged with inciting a riot. If the flag burners are hospitalized, then let them off with a warning. No charges against the people that were incited to riot by the burning of the flag. Seems fair; actions and consequences thing.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    You are 7 months late with this realization. I posted this, in March:

    :up:

    I must've missed your post. The over the top flag burning punishment just solidified the idea to me.
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    GunnerK19 wrote: »
    But burning a Rainbow/LGBT flag is a "Hate Crime".

    Until it is challenged in court. Same with the US flag burning.

    Maybe the SCOTUS ruling set the precedent for burning any flag.
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Didn't either Alabama or Mississippi make it a misdemeanor with a $50.00 maximum fine to beat a flag burner awhile back? Works for me!
    Jerry
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    I don't see any problem with the free speech part. However, if a fight breaks out due to the burning of the flag, I think the flag burners should be subject to being charged with inciting a riot.
    I don't see any issue with that at all. We already have laws in place to deal with that. I wouldn't even let them off with a warning if they were hospitalized. As soon as they checked out, they should be arrested and charged-- inciting a riot is not protected First Amendment speech.

    And we don't need yet another law... this time against flag burning to make that happen. What Trump is trying to do by taking Hillary Clinton's anti-freedom position is beyond me.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Capitalize on the ignorance of the rabid right wing redneck voters. The ones that see the snowflakes burning their flag, and want them punished. Not realizing the road they are taking is a dead end.
    It is a slight of hand trick. Look over here so you don't see what I am doing over there...
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JRLJRL Member Posts: 355 Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    So he basically took Hillary Clinton's position on the subject and opposed Scalia's?


    Gotcha.


    Actually Scalia said same thing (wished he could put flag burners in jail) but knew he couldn't because of constitutional rights.

    Trump just says this stuff to let you know how much he loves this country (like Scalia did) and that he wishes everyone would (but he knows they don't)

    He doesn't mean literally take their citizenship or jail them- he is just saying what a preponderance of us feel-- we love the country and the flag that stands for it and the men and women who have died for it... and the desecrators be damned.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Bottom line for me is that the flag they are burning is the same flag that drapes the coffins of active duty killed in combat, and veterans, and is carefully folded and handed to a family member. There's just some things that transcend the right to protest in that manner.

    So.............................if you light that flag on fire, then
    14102607_1199127486812295_4144820018499426895_n_zpsfsgfgxk7.jpg
    And deserve to beaten until you can't move even your eyelids.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    This is not an anti-freedom position. This a matter of bringing ACCOUNTABILITY back into the system. There are SOME things that should be sacred in order to have a society with a broad enough common value system that function to make a country work. You can NOT go to the Lincoln Memorial and paint it red as a protest. You can NOT pee on the Washington monument and call it a 1st amendment demonstration. Our Flag, National Seal, founding documents like the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Bill of Right etc. represents a concept MUCH higher than just individual freedoms, they are the pillars that guarantee the common understanding of our MOST BASIC core values. And anyone that does NOT consider them sacred should be offered an opportunity for a swift exit from my country!!! If you burn a picture of Martin Luther King or some representation of Mohammed there will be repercussions encouraged, if not actually direct, form our government, why is MY flag excluded from this level of respect?

    And if it's a property issue, fine, you can burn it all day long, BUT I do NOT agree that it should be free of consequence. My first choice would be to allow ME to personally kick the ass of the imbecile doing the desecrating, but since that is considered assault under current law then MAYBE there should be a legal consequence to desecrating the official symbols of this country.

    As we continue making allowances for the carrying out of emotional, meaningless hissy fits of every weak, fringe, dumbass that feels like he has been injured or somehow repressed, we play right into the game plan of divisiveness the progresso liberals have for us. A country of 330,000,000 individuals is a country of 330,000,000 slaves...
    You know, we were only joking about that whole "Wambli war lord" thing. All the examples you used are just plain vandalism. If someone steals someone else's flag and burns it, that is both theft and arson. If some jackass burns their own flag in public and people decide to kick their ass over it, that individual deserves to be prosecuted for inciting a riot PLUS the ass kicking.

    I was going to say more, but Alpha just did a pretty good job of explaining my feelings on the subject.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    You've posted similar things recently and I have to say while I'm sympathetic to the general concept of common values and tradition. However I strongly believe that number one among those common values is FREEDOM. I feel like the fact that flag burning is legal represents in many ways one of the greatest demonstrations of the power of our constitutionally protected freedoms, when even an act as disgusting as that is legally protected. IMHO the act of flag burning remaining legal is not a demonstration of national weakness but a demonstration of national strength.

    That said there is a big difference between things that are legal and those that are socially acceptable. Flag burning should never be socially acceptable and those that chose to do so should and frequently are condemned. What we don't need however is the government dictating through force of law what the majority finds socially acceptable. That my friend is a slippery slope that leads to tyranny and ruin.

    Yes this.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    If more of these flag desecrators just happen to get their asses stomped to a bloody pulp, I'll bet their liked-minded buddies just might, maybe, find some other method of expressing themselves. Even if it's not codified into law, somehow I think the cops under a Trump administration might be inclined to arrive at the scene of said ass-stompings just a little too late to apprehend the perpetrators. Hope so!
    Jerry
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Do you know how some Muslims go crazy if the Koran is desecrated in some way, like their whole religion and way of life is threatened? Aren't you glad Americans aren't like that?
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Do you know how some Muslims go crazy if the Koran is desecrated in some way, like their whole religion and way of life is threatened? Aren't you glad Americans aren't like that?

    No Comparison.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    No Comparison.
    I agree because our country is not a religion. Our values are based on ideas-- not symbols. When you place an emphasis on the symbols, the ideas tend to be forgotten. How many Christians out there worship their bible but completely miss the message of Jesus? I have met some.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    THIS is why a flag burner is lower than a whale turd in the bottom of the Mariana trench.

    militarycoffins_zpsvotixnvq.jpg
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
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