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Trump - flag burning should be loss of citizenship or jail

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Replies

  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Whatever else can be said for, or against, smoking; cigarette smoke is one of the foulest smelling smokes on the planet - I'd much rather breathe fumes from a well-tuned diesel!

    Dude, there ain't nothing about the south you're going to like.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    A well tuned Diesel is stoichiometric, and has no fumes- - - -just carbon dioxide and water vapor.
    Jerry
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    It is a private establishment. You can choose to go somewhere else even if the sushi isn't as good. See consequences. The argument is perfectly sound.


    While I agree that a restaurant is private property and the owner should have the right to determine weather they allow people to smoke in their establishment, the roadways are owned by the states that they're in and those states can dictate the requirements for using their roads.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Cigarette smoke and "coalers". Ha!
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    While I agree that a restaurant is private property and the owner should have the right to determine weather they allow people to smoke in their establishment, the roadways are owned by the states that they're in and those states can dictate the requirements for using their roads.

    And still a restriction on freedom.

    For the record I wear my seatbelt. I feel naked without it. Someone wants to kill themself, that is their business. Seatbelt laws are a money maker nothing else.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    A well tuned Diesel is stoichiometric, and has no fumes- - - -just carbon dioxide and water vapor.
    Jerry

    I have never been around a well tuned diesel then.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Probably not- - - -they're pretty rare critters!
    Jerry
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    A well tuned Diesel is stoichiometric, and has no fumes- - - -just carbon dioxide and water vapor.
    Jerry

    Wait until some chiggers and red ants climb up his skirt, he'll wish he was sucking in some well tuned diesel fumes.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,632 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    While I agree that a restaurant is private property and the owner should have the right to determine weather they allow people to smoke in their establishment, the roadways are owned by the states that they're in and those states can dictate the requirements for using their roads.


    True enough, but it's the government - who doesn't own the restaurant - who is coming up with the 'no smoking' ordinances.

    To draw a parallel; This would be like the restaurant owners being allowed to decide the rules of the road.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    True enough, but it's the government - who doesn't own the restaurant - who is coming up with the 'no smoking' ordinances.

    To draw a parallel; This would be like the restaurant owners being allowed to decide the rules of the road.


    Well then I have another new one for y'all about the government and smoking, they're banning smoking in all federal housing.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    Well then I have another new one for y'all about the government and smoking, they're banning smoking in all federal housing.

    Even crack?
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Wait until some chiggers and red ants climb up his skirt, he'll wish he was sucking in some well tuned diesel fumes.

    :spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao: He'll be scratching his nether regions bloody raw! :roll2: And them chiggers won't pass up the tender tissue around the 'brown starfish', either! Gawd! I'm about to have to get on the floor I'm laughing so hard! :roll2: :roll2: :roll2: :roll2:
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    GunnerK19 wrote: »
    My $.02...

    There absolutely should be consequences for burning the American flag; while I think loss of citizenship is a bit heavy handed, I'm not against fines or at least some jail time.

    Scalia said of burning the flag, “Burning the flag is a form of expression,” Scalia continued. He later added that burning a flag is an action that “expresses an idea.”

    There is a difference between constitutionally protected "Freedom of Speech" and "Freedom of Expression". Freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship, or societal sanction. The term freedom of expression is sometimes used synonymously, but includes any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.

    The right to freedom of expression is recognized as a human right under article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and recognized in international human rights law in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Article 19 of the ICCPR states that "everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference" and "everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice". Article 19 additionally states that the exercise of these rights carries "special duties and responsibilities" and may "therefore be subject to certain restrictions" when necessary "for respect of the rights or reputation of others" or "for the protection of national security or of public order, or of public health or morals".

    Actions have consequences. This is particularly true in recent years. Burn a gay flag, refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding, or send a company email telling your Trump supporting employees to resign and there will be backlash just short of being sent to Hell for eternity. There absolutely needs to be some sort of consequences for disrespecting the flag of the nation that you choose to live in. If you are so disappointed with the US that you feel the need to burn its symbol there are countless other countries for you to reside in. Buy a plane ticket.

    As I said, that my two cents. Keep the torches and pitchforks to a minimum.

    Well, I'll be in the middle of the bull ring with you so I'm bringing my buckler shield and a bucket or two of water to throw on the fires. So you're not going to face the hordes alone.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,058 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    :spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao: He'll be scratching his nether regions bloody raw! :roll2: And them chiggers won't pass up the tender tissue around the 'brown starfish', either! Gawd! I'm about to have to get on the floor I'm laughing so hard! :roll2: :roll2: :roll2: :roll2:

    Yea, yea, yea - its all fun and games until somebody breaks a nail! :tooth:

    You guys crack me up...

    I'll tell you what I really do like about the south: People are nice to talk to. They're not rude, they're not cold, they're not full of self-important BS. They say "Good Morning", and it isn't just a sound they're making - they mean it! I noticed this when I was 10 years old and we were visiting relatives in Ky and NOLA. Made me want to live in Kentucky then, and I could live there now. NOLA is nice, but the humidity...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    :spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao: He'll be scratching his nether regions bloody raw! :roll2: And them chiggers won't pass up the tender tissue around the 'brown starfish', either! Gawd! :roll2: :roll2: :roll2: :roll2:


    Didn't Crystal Gayle sing a song about that? I think it was "don't it make my brown eye blue?".
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Plus it makes all your clothes reek! I was firmly on the fence about outlawing it in my state, but generally on the keep it legal side, but man it's nice to not smell like an ash tray anytime I want a drink!


    It should be up to the bar owner to choose customers that may smoke or customers that don't smoke. The non-smokers have the option of going to a bar where smoking is not allowed. You're apparently on the fence about government forcing a business owner to provide an environment that you prefer. How selfless of you.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Plus it makes all your clothes reek! I was firmly on the fence about outlawing it in my state, but generally on the keep it legal side, but man it's nice to not smell like an ash tray anytime I want a drink!

    Reminds me of when the nuke plant banned smoking inside the turbine building(:roll2:) and the control room. Us smokers 'commandeered' some building materials and built a shack on the outside MSR deck on Unit 2 side of turbine building and cabled it down to prevent it blowing away. Electric heater kept it warm in winter and we had a steel bucket full of sand for a buttkit. We were fat, dumb, and happy with this arrangement until the nonsmokers got a bug up their butts and started coming out there to chew the fat. They started complaining about the smoke filled shack and pitched a hissy conniption fit because of the smoke and complained to management. And plant management made us disassemble it to appease the nonsmokers who had invaded our space. Serious friction ensued between the smokers and nonsmokers after that. We'd go out on the MSR deck for a smoke break, the nonsmokers would follow in a few minutes and then complain about the smoke. They were told pretty quickly in no uncertain terms to get their :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: butts away from us and let us have a smoke break in peace. That friction remained for the 6-7 years remaining before I retired and was still there when I left.
    The turbine building had fumes from acid, caustic, ammonia, hydrazine, and other chemicals in it, and the previous smoking area was in the corner of the turbine floor next to a concrete wall on one side, a glass wall on the other side, and a concrete floor. Not like we were gonna burn the building down or add any smell to the place.
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    The smoke from flags makes your clothes reek too and I'm sure burning nylon releases toxic fumes into the atmosphere. But good smelling clothes is a MUCH more important issue than desecrating a national symbol... :roll:

    Some of the flags made from synthetic materials give off cyanide gas when burned. Especially those cheap Chinese ones made from PVC. If they get gassed with cyanide, then that's sauce for the gander. Don't care, either. Breathe deep, all y'all flag burners! :up:
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Both of your positions make the tenuous assumption that "secondhand smoke" is some sort of a real hazard. How's the Unicorn steak and rainbow stew at that restaurant, anyhow?
    :uhm:
    Jerry
    Oregon has a law prohibiting smoking within 10 feet of all businesses primary entrance. So the law applies to hookah lounges? Brilliant!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,058 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Says the person moving to Flaaaarida.

    You have looked at a map and do realize that state is a peninsula? :rotflmao:

    You may laugh, but the east coast of Florida isn't nearly as humid as the Gulf coast - or NOLA. We get a gentle sea breeze in the afternoon that cools things off - not to suggest that it doesn't get HOT AND HUMID - but just not as much as NOLA or the Gulf coast most of the time.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    You may laugh, but the east coast of Florida isn't nearly as humid as the Gulf coast - or NOLA. We get a gentle sea breeze in the afternoon that cools things off - not to suggest that it doesn't get HOT AND HUMID - but just not as much as NOLA or the Gulf coast most of the time.

    I was stationed in Mayport, FL on the mouth of the St. Johns river for three years. Summers there were hotter than the hinges of Hell, the humidity was unbearable, and the mosquitoes were big enough to shoot with a shotgun! The off shore and on shore breezes weren't all that refreshing, and weren't anywhere near long enough, and from around 10:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. were nonexistent. It got more hot 'n' humid further South.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,198 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    I was stationed in Mayport, FL on the mouth of the St. Johns river for three years. Summers there were hotter than the hinges of Hell, the humidity was unbearable, and the mosquitoes were big enough to shoot with a shotgun! The off shore and on shore breezes weren't all that refreshing, and weren't anywhere near long enough, and from around 10:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. were nonexistent. It got more hot 'n' humid further South.

    Lots more breeze down south and less humid than Mayport too.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 8,009 Senior Member
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisheadgib View Post
    While I agree that a restaurant is private property and the owner should have the right to determine weather they allow people to smoke in their establishment, the roadways are owned by the states that they're in and those states can dictate the requirements for using their roads.
    And still a restriction on freedom.

    Nope. You still have unrestricted freedom to go somewhere else. Your rights stop where the landowners begin, period. Thats why property rights are so important. Your freedom isnt restricted BY THE GOVT. You do not have to right to go into someone elses building, and make it stink. Same thing with concealed carry. You have the right to carry. You do not have the right to carry into a place that says they dont want you to carry there.

    As to the seat belt red herring. Seat belts are to keep you in front of the stuff that keeps that 2 ton of plastic and metal from becoming a unguided projectile. It is sold as a way to protect you, but it is also a way to protect other drivers. If you are hit and end up in the back seat, you cannot hit the brakes or steer. Driving is a privilege, not a right, so if it is something that has proven to keep folks safe, thats the way it is. Seat belts also do reduce injury to you in a crash. That reduces the cost of med care, which in turn affects everyone.

    ..............................

    As to the rest of the thread.

    My country was created by individuals. There is no higher claim than the rights of the individual, period. Those individuals act in concert, as a group of like minded individuals. Do I have a problem with flag burners? You bet, and as a American I get to live with that. SCOTUS has ruled that burning the flag is a expression of 1st A rights. Ok, Fine. I have to live with that. Where I can draw the line is burning the flag on public ground. Public property can, is, and should be regulated because we as a group, are in control of it. It is not a place for anyone to do anything whenever they want to. You have a absolute right to your opinion, and to make a statement even if it includes desecrating a national symbol. You DO NOT have the right to a venue. You can burn the flag on private property that you have permission of the landowner to do so on and legal right to burn. That can include burning the flag. It does not abridge the 1st in any way.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    flag burning should at least warrant a ticket for violating a city ordnance against burning.
  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    Why is driving a privilege? Because the government said so. And we must OBEY the government under penalty of law.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    john9001 wrote: »
    Why is driving a privilege? Because the government said so. And we must OBEY the government under penalty of law.

    Driving on your own property is a right but driving on someone elses property is a privilege. The state is that someone else and if you abide by that state's rules, they allow you the privilege of using their roads. Why is that so hard to grasp?
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    Driving on your own property is a right but driving on someone elses property is a privilege. The state is that someone else and if you abide by that state's rules, they allow you the privilege of using their roads. Why is that so hard to grasp?

    Government property is our property.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Nope. You still have unrestricted freedom to go somewhere else. Your rights stop where the landowners begin, period. Thats why property rights are so important. Your freedom isnt restricted BY THE GOVT. You do not have to right to go into someone elses building, and make it stink. Same thing with concealed carry. You have the right to carry. You do not have the right to carry into a place that says they dont want you to carry there.

    As to the seat belt red herring. Seat belts are to keep you in front of the stuff that keeps that 2 ton of plastic and metal from becoming a unguided projectile. It is sold as a way to protect you, but it is also a way to protect other drivers. If you are hit and end up in the back seat, you cannot hit the brakes or steer. Driving is a privilege, not a right, so if it is something that has proven to keep folks safe, thats the way it is. Seat belts also do reduce injury to you in a crash. That reduces the cost of med care, which in turn affects everyone.

    ..............................

    As to the rest of the thread.

    My country was created by individuals. There is no higher claim than the rights of the individual, period. Those individuals act in concert, as a group of like minded individuals. Do I have a problem with flag burners? You bet, and as a American I get to live with that. SCOTUS has ruled that burning the flag is a expression of 1st A rights. Ok, Fine. I have to live with that. Where I can draw the line is burning the flag on public ground. Public property can, is, and should be regulated because we as a group, are in control of it. It is not a place for anyone to do anything whenever they want to. You have a absolute right to your opinion, and to make a statement even if it includes desecrating a national symbol. You DO NOT have the right to a venue. You can burn the flag on private property that you have permission of the landowner to do so on and legal right to burn. That can include burning the flag. It does not abridge the 1st in any way.

    You do realize I am for the rights of the restaraunts right. The comment on restriction pertains to the seatbelt issue.
    If I hit a bump hard enough to throw me in the back seat I have already lost control. Strawman.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    And they don't seem to care if bikers ride around without helmets. It has never been about safety, just about control and income from fines.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    So I looked up fatality rates. I won't post the links so don't ask. In 2015 there were 10.whatever traffic deaths per 100000 in the US. Same year in New Hampshire there were 8.49 deaths per 100000. New Hampshire is the only state that a seatbelt is not a primary violation for adults. So how are the seatbelt laws saving the lives of other drivers again? Please feel free to post the statistics of runaway missile cars with drivers flailing in the back seat in the state of New Hampshire vs the rest of the US. It is, and has always been, about taking your money from you. You may choose to justify GovCo intrusion if you like. I will not.

    And back to the OP. How has the burning of an American flag harmed anything other than your nancy boy panties. When it causes another harm, or deprives them of their pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, then we can discuss outlawing it. Until then it is just you trying to force your world view on another.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    And they don't seem to care if bikers ride around without helmets. It has never been about safety, just about control and income from fines.

    That varies state to state because where I Iive, insurance is required with four wheeled vehicles but not with motorcycles unless they are financed. Helmets are also not mandatory as long as you have a certain amount of insurance. The reason for that is if you get your ticket punched while riding your bike, taxpayers don't have to pay for scraping you up.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
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