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Trump - flag burning should be loss of citizenship or jail

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  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,142 Senior Member
    Jerm Tuba and others. I know the law and constitution better than most. And believe me I know the oath I took.
    I know the flag is only a symble, but to me and many others it is the symble of us all. For the good that our country stands for.
    That flag stands for duty, honor, country. I have saluted it more times than I can count as it was raised and lowered, as it covered friends and fellow military members in uniforms coffin. Folded it as part of their burial, carried it in parades and have my own that was given to mewhen I retired from the Army. I consider desicrating our flag the same as spitting in mine and every Americans face. Legal? Yea but not right. That is just this once awarrior, now just a getting old fat guys opinion.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    ...which I completely respect. Wholeheartedly!
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Not trying to sound hokey or corny, but some thoughts on this.

    The flag I saluted and served under for 20 years in the US Army and 15 more as a DA Civilian means a lot to me. I do understand the 1st A and why folks get very upset to see and hear about one getting desecrated. I see it as a symbol of our Constitution, an extension of it, what it represents.

    All the times I saluted it when it went up in the mornings and down in the afternoons in formation or stopping to pay respect by halting what I was doing or getting outta my vehicle on post I often thought about what it means to me. More times than I care to remember it wasn't time to go home, but back to work, Mission First.

    It wasn't for a current president, commander, my unit or myself, but for what those Stars and Stripes represent and stand for. It is hard to explain if you have never been in uniform.

    I can fully understand the outrage by some seeing it burned, OTOH I also know why others burn it for whatever reason motivates them under their 1st A protections. I often think, go do that in China or many other countries and see what happens........be the last time they did it most likely. Then that reminds me just how wonderful the USA is to allow it, as despicable as I find it.

    That is why I served under it and continue to respect our flag. I do love it for a myriad of reasons. For things, rights/protections under it. Some I personally agree with and others I don't. But that is why I defend it, your rights, mine and everyone else s.

    Fortunately, very few choose to burn it and the majority of Americans from all walks of life respect our flag.

    God Bless America :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Not trying to sound hokey or corny, but some thoughts on this.

    The flag I saluted and served under for 20 years in the US Army and 15 more as a DA Civilian means a lot to me. I do understand the 1st A and why folks get very upset to see and hear about one getting desecrated. I see it as a symbol of our Constitution, an extension of it, what it represents.

    All the times I saluted it when it went up in the mornings and down in the afternoons in formation or stopping to pay respect by halting what I was doing or getting outta my vehicle on post I often thought about what it means to me. More times than I care to remember it wasn't time to go home, but back to work, Mission First.

    It wasn't for a current president, commander, my unit or myself, but for what those Stars and Stripes represent and stand for. It is hard to explain if you have never been in uniform.

    I can fully understand the outrage by some seeing it burned, OTOH I also know why others burn it for whatever reason motivates them under their 1st A protections. I often think, go do that in China or many other countries and see what happens........be the last time they did it most likely. Then that reminds me just how wonderful the USA is to allow it, as despicable as I find it.

    That is why I served under it and continue to respect our flag. I do love it for a myriad of reasons. For things, rights/protections under it. Some I personally agree with and others I don't. But that is why I defend it, your rights, mine and everyone else s.

    Fortunately, very few choose to burn it and the majority of Americans from all walks of life respect our flag.

    God Bless America :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa:

    Well said Chief. I have not served, so I can not comment on those experiences, but your sentiment is much my own. I
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    You can love America just as much as I do without ever putting on a military uniform and be just as patriotic, don't get me wrong.

    But their are certain experiences/feelings having done so that only others having done the same can completely understand.

    Thank you all for the support you show our VETs on here.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »

    But their are certain experiences/feelings having done so that only others having done the same can completely understand.
    You will get no argument from me on this.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    I often think, go do that in China or many other countries and see what happens........be the last time they did it most likely. Then that reminds me just how wonderful the USA is to allow it, as despicable as I find it.


    Well said. :agree:
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,985 Senior Member
    Well spoken, BC. Well spoken.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    Well said BC,


    I have the easy fix to the whole conundrum, when they burn the flag in protest, don't arrest them for burning the flag. Cite them for the EPA regs they just violated.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Grew up like most saying The Pledge of Allegiance every day at school. Still say it a couple times a month at shooting matches and other events. Saluted that flag like BC said in the morning and the evening. I stand up and insist my family does as well when it comes by at the head of a parade. I've folded more then a few over coffins. Even carried it in NYC in a parade as part of the Honor Guard wearing more chrome the a 72 Caddie. Got booed and cursed out by liberal hippies (just after Viet Nam ended, 1978). As minor as my experiences have been compared to others, I figure it was defending others rights to be total DBs, as much as I may despise them.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    Does it stop your pursuit of happiness? We are not guaranteed happiness, just the pursuit of it.
    Like regulated (2nd Amendment) pursuit (Declaration of Independence) has more than one definition. Both had different common usage meanings in the 18th century than they have today.

    Merriam-Webster

    Definition of pursuit
    1. 1 : the act of pursuing
    2. 2 : an activity that one engages in as a vocation, profession, or avocation

    Examples of pursuit in a sentence
    1. The hounds were running in the woods in pursuit of a fox.
    2. She enjoys reading, knitting, and other quiet pursuits.

    For the framers of the Declaration of Independence “happiness meant that feeling of self-worth and dignity you acquire by contributing to your community and to its civic life.” In the context of the Declaration of Independence, happiness was about an individual’s contribution to society rather than pursuing self-gratification.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    That whole thing was shamelessly stolen from John Locke. His concept was that life, liberty, and property were natural rights of man. They were just trying to echo that concept when they wrote the Declaration of Independence.

    http://oll.libertyfund.org/quotes/497

    That is why property rights is such an important concept in this country and why if we want to stick to our roots, we need to embrace capitalism.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    sgtrock21 wrote: »
    Like regulated (2nd Amendment) pursuit (Declaration of Independence) has more than one definition. Both had different common usage meanings in the 18th century than they have today.

    Merriam-Webster

    Definition of pursuit
    1. 1 : the act of pursuing
    2. 2 : an activity that one engages in as a vocation, profession, or avocation

    Examples of pursuit in a sentence
    1. The hounds were running in the woods in pursuit of a fox.
    2. She enjoys reading, knitting, and other quiet pursuits.

    For the framers of the Declaration of Independence “happiness meant that feeling of self-worth and dignity you acquire by contributing to your community and to its civic life.” In the context of the Declaration of Independence, happiness was about an individual’s contribution to society rather than pursuing self-gratification.

    So I ask again. Does the burning of a flag prevent you from pursuing happiness, regardless of your definition?
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »

    That is why property rights is such an important concept in this country and why if we want to stick to our roots, we need to embrace capitalism.
    Exactly. We want to incarcerate and or kill an individual for burning a flag, but just grumble about property taxes. How does one ever own their property if it can be taken for not paying gov co theirs. Wasting time with minutia while real issues need attention.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    So I ask again. Does the burning of a flag prevent you from pursuing happiness, regardless of your definition?
    Burning the US flag with the exception of properly disposing of a worn flag prevents my activity of choice "being happy" by causing me to not be happy.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    That whole thing was shamelessly stolen from John Locke. His concept was that life, liberty, and property were natural rights of man. They were just trying to echo that concept when they wrote the Declaration of Independence.

    http://oll.libertyfund.org/quotes/497

    That is why property rights is such an important concept in this country and why if we want to stick to our roots, we need to embrace capitalism.
    John Locke. I now remember that from American history class 48 years ago. I also recall something about property ownership being a requirement to vote in the very early years.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    So I ask again. Does the burning of a flag prevent you from pursuing happiness, regardless of your definition?

    Only if such acts in turn cause anarchy and cause this nation to fail. I'm scared such acts can be slippery slopes. Even our liberties need some limits or we will fail due to anarchism. I say again, back as far as the 50s I can remember when you would get paddled in school for unpatriotic words and deeds and nobody would come to your rescue. You were never permitted to speak of anything of a treasonous nature. The first time I heard people talking like this was in the latter 60s when the hippies started all this BS and the limbertailed politicians let this train of thought propagate into what we have with all the PC crap we have today. But the very people that are so PC about any traditional values are the very ones who stand up for this Treasonous BS today. In my opinion the only limit we should have on our first amendment rights is not being allowed to do any treasonous acts or speak treasonous thoughts. And buring Old Glory is purely treasonous. Anyway, that's the way I see it. But Majority rules.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    That whole thing was shamelessly stolen from John Locke. His concept was that life, liberty, and property were natural rights of man. They were just trying to echo that concept when they wrote the Declaration of Independence.

    http://oll.libertyfund.org/quotes/497

    That is why property rights is such an important concept in this country and why if we want to stick to our roots, we need to embrace capitalism.

    Ok Jerm, point well taken, however in my opinion there was nothing shameless about it and it wasn't stolen, it was an accumulation of the realization of rights that were given all men and should have been realized by the ruling class way before. Locke was just one of the first to realize it and put the words down in writing that I know of. Our Freedoms and liberties have come to us through an evolution of ideas from the signing of the Magna Cartra to present. Yes, Jefferson borrowed the words as scholars and statesmen have for all time since. These are not just words, but natural facts that there should never be any copyright put upon. They belong to all men. Rights given by God, or natural rights if you will, don't have a human author or owner, merely human custodians.

    Our government was set up with these rights as the back bone of our Constitution. In order to protect them I cannot see an invitation to anarchism as any benefit to our society. We are a nation of laws, laws made to protect our rights and prevent anarchism or outside forces from causing this great system to fail. We should defend just laws but not allow anarchist ideas and values to govern us. We have no right to allow a great institution which protects the innocent and tries to protect our rights to fail. Allowing people to tear down our way of life is not my idea of freedom. Our Freedoms and Liberties should be protected from this sort of thought at all costs.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,118 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    Only if such acts in turn cause anarchy and cause this nation to fail. I'm scared such acts can be slippery slopes. Even our liberties need some limits or we will fail due to anarchism. I say again, back as far as the 50s I can remember when you would get paddled in school for unpatriotic words and deeds and nobody would come to your rescue. You were never permitted to speak of anything of a treasonous nature. The first time I heard people talking like this was in the latter 60s when the hippies started all this BS and the limbertailed politicians let this train of thought propagate into what we have with all the PC crap we have today. But the very people that are so PC about any traditional values are the very ones who stand up for this Treasonous BS today. In my opinion the only limit we should have on our first amendment rights is not being allowed to do any treasonous acts or speak treasonous thoughts. And buring Old Glory is purely treasonous. Anyway, that's the way I see it. But Majority rules.

    There is a reason the Sedition Act of 1918 was repealed....and "freedom" by it's very nature is a "slippery slope"....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    George Orwell- - - - -"1984"- - - - - -Thought Police- - - - - -maybe Snake could be Big Brother! That being said, the occasional flag burner getting a curb stomp would go a long way toward making the practice a lot less popular.
    Jerry
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    The occasional flag burner getting a curb stomp would go a long way toward making the practice a lot less popular.
    I don't think anyone has come out against that position. Our big thing is that it is not the role of government to prosecute and punish citizens for excercising their natural right to free speech. If doing so gets them curb stomped, so be it.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    For me, it all boils to context. It isn't the flag burning so much as what it represents.\
    First, a couple of pictures; a picture is worth a thousand words, I've heard.

    Enemies, foreign. They wish to destroy the U.S. and make it Islamic. Convert or die and all that mess.

    hk510a3f72_zpsswyt8g6a.jpg

    Enemies, domestic. They want to destroy the Constitution and the Republic and set up their Utopian ideal of whatever mishmash of Communism, Socialism, Progressiveism, Fascism, and whatever that gives them all they want for no input on their part.

    29E9EAA800000578-0-image-m-2_1435140728167_zpsisvceepm.jpg

    The context is that both want to destroy the U.S.; one from without and the other from within. I see them as no different. They are enemies, one foreign and one domestic. The flag burning is their way of outwardly signing their intent. And in that context, it is not free speech. The first group has the ability, mindset, and means to make great headway in their aim, but lack the brains to get it done. But they are learning as the invasion of 'refugees' in Europe shows. The second group has neither ability, or mindset for violent action, but has the means, through the ballot box, to work their plan. California, anyone? A few megacities already control the whole state, and they have spread their poison to the large cities in Washington, Oregon, and Colorado. And the NE Coast is riddled with the same. Deny it if you want, and justify it, or remain silent, and give consent by the silence.

    This is how I see the argument on flag burning as 'free speech'.

    1796463_10154729248285015_6667194096665655190_n_zpslfrse6cv.jpg
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • GunnerK19GunnerK19 Senior Member Posts: 1,095 Senior Member
    This is how I see the argument on flag burning as 'free speech'.

    ZKE5rxJ.jpg
    I'm a Conservative. How conservative? Only Alex P. Keaton has me beat.

    Taurus 605 .357, Ruger .45 Vaquero, Colt frontier commemorative .22 SA, Pietta 1860 .44 snubnose
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Classic "Art of the Deal" tactics. He literally wrote the book on this subject. Make an outrageous original proposal the opposition will not even consider, then negotiate from that position to get a better outcome than a more moderate beginning could achieve. It works in business, but most conservative politicians are too timid to use that kind of approach and it floors the liberals to have their own ammo turned back on them.
    Jerry

    This.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    SCOTUS gave flag burners legal protection of the Constitution of the United States of America. As a law abiding citizen I have to abide by their decision. As far as I know there is no law requiring me to like it.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    sgtrock21 wrote: »
    SCOTUS gave flag burners legal protection of the Constitution of the United States of America. As a law abiding citizen I have to abide by their decision. As far as I know there is no law requiring me to like it.

    Me too this.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
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