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Yet another HD/SD question.

RocketmanRocketman BannedPosts: 1,118 Senior Member
I've read somewhere (not sure if here when I was a lurker), that many prefer an AR over a shotgun for home defense because of penetration issues. I gathered that some were saying they were worried about a shotgun over penetrating. Um, am I missing something here? I'd think a shotgun with some 00 buck wouldn't make it as far as a 223 that's hauling ass. Of course there is frangible ammo but still??? Maybe I read something wrong?
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Replies

  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,668 Senior Member
    There are arguments to be made on both sides. I think a slug would over-penetrate compared with a .223, but I'm not sure on that. At close ranges, like MY bedroom, a charge of shot would probably penetrate like a slug. And a .223 would likely penetrate dry wall like a drill.

    But fact is, since I live alone, I don't have to worry about over-penetration. So I prefer a pistol, which is quicker to deploy from my bed, although I have a shotgun under my bed for things that go clank in the night. And a Mini 14 in the closet. I have no illusions I'll ever have to use any of them, but my first choice is the H&K P 7. Who knows what's best for your situation?
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    I'm curious to see the popular opinion.
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 7,511 Senior Member
    I have an 18" barreled 870 Remington set up with 3"turkey loads. Inside the house those loads are nasty, and won't over penatrate. I also load the shotgun to mag capacity MINUS one so I can load a slug if I need one whenever I need to. It works for me.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Opinion doesn't matter science does. I built a 2x4 framed wall,with 3/4 drywall on both sides, and shot it with 7.5 shot. I placed a pork roast with spare ribs on the other side against a steel backer. El cheapo target crap. The shot was fired from an 18.5 inch barrel at 25 yards. The shot fully penetrated the wall, ribs, and roast. There was full profision of shot throughot the roast all the way up to the steel plate. As far as a 223 goes, yeah it went though all that with aplomb.
    If you are shooting in your house, you better know what is on the other side of the wall. Of course the studs will have an effect for sure. I was testing penetration of drywall only. I would like to revisit may wall experiments some day.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    My tests were 5/8" plywood at 12 yards. All shot sizes fired from an 18.5" cylinder bore made a complete pass through except Win #8 xtra lite target loads. Those stuck in the last layer for the most part.

    Likely comes down to what folks are most comfortable with and what fits their plan and circumstance. Ammo selection can be a big deal too.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,773 Senior Member
    Opinion doesn't matter science does. I built a 2x4 framed wall,with 3/4 drywall on both sides, and shot it with 7.5 shot. I placed a pork roast with spare ribs on the other side against a steel backer. El cheapo target crap. The shot was fired from an 18.5 inch barrel at 25 yards. The shot fully penetrated the wall, ribs, and roast. There was full profision of shot throughot the roast all the way up to the steel plate. As far as a 223 goes, yeah it went though all that with aplomb.
    If you are shooting in your house, you better know what is on the other side of the wall. Of course the studs will have an effect for sure. I was testing penetration of drywall only. I would like to revisit may wall experiments some day.

    Save yourself the trouble. When I was a wee lad, I blew a hole through my bedroom wall with a .410 loaded with #6 shot, at a range of about 10 feet. The sheet rock, the 4" dimension of the wood stud, and the 1/2" hard pine siding didn't stand a chance. 7 or 8 yards past that, neither did the bark on the red oak.

    I learned a lot that morning, but what I remember best is being stunned almost senseless by firing a shotgun in an enclosed room, and that even a "tiny" .410 produces a hell of a lot of smoke if there's no breeze to move it along.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    I'm guessing bird shot would do the trick without overdoing it?
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    Just saw Linefinders post. I'm still guessing a 223 would penetrate more and further. That's just based on a ballistical guess though.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    The myth that a shotgun will not over penetrate has been going around for too long. I believed it for years and when I did my experiments it was actually trying to prove the myth. Boy was I wrong and so are all spreading the myth. I am not saying don't use a shotgun. I am saying approach your decision with all the right data.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Rocketman wrote: »
    I'm guessing bird shot would do the trick without overdoing it?

    Probly, but it strikes me that if Ive filled my hands with a shotgun for self preservation, why skimp on the pay load?
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Bottom line- - - - -don't count on anything short of a poured concrete wall to stop a projectile from anything more powerful than a pellet gun. KNOW what's behind the walls you're shooting toward no matter what you're shooting.
    Jerry
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 12,170 Senior Member
    Here is where people actually tested the theories:

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Most 223 bullets will tumble and quite a few will start breaking up in short order.
    In the testing I've done, I can't recall a 223 bullet that penetrated as much as a handgun round (9mm or larger)
    Compared to 00 buck, I don't know. I've never done penetration tests with buckshot.

    my HD carbine is loaded with 50gr TAP (aka 50gr V-max)

    A local PD did some testing on cars. Their 9mms penetrated the car more than the 223 rounds. The 223 were not strong enough for the high velocity hits on the steel. They just disentegrated in most instances. On drywall they were just lasers.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Here is where people actually tested the theories:

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/

    Cool tests bullsi thanks for posting. I never did multiple walls with the 223.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,754 Senior Member
    Linefinder wrote: »
    Save yourself the trouble. When I was a wee lad, I blew a hole through my bedroom wall with a .410 loaded with #6 shot, at a range of about 10 feet. The sheet rock, the 4" dimension of the wood stud, and the 1/2" hard pine siding didn't stand a chance. 7 or 8 yards past that, neither did the bark on the red oak.

    I learned a lot that morning, but what I remember best is being stunned almost senseless by firing a shotgun in an enclosed room, and that even a "tiny" .410 produces a hell of a lot of smoke if there's no breeze to move it along.

    Mike

    That........was...........AWESOME!!!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,773 Senior Member
    All else being equal (similar bullet construction), heavy and slow is the recipe for deep penetration. A .223 stoked with fast 40 grain VMaxes won't bull it's way through nearly as much as a pedestrian speed .45 ACP HP.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,773 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    That........was...........AWESOME!!!

    You should have been there. It was almost like science.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Back in the 80s I fired my 624 .44 spl with 6 1/2" bbl using Silvertip ammo at some "Paper" trees in FLA.......went through them like a hot knife through butter. Nephew mowed some down with a pump shotgun and birdshot.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,668 Senior Member
    I torched an unintentional discharge with a .38 Special in my den through a plastered wall. The wall had steel wire mesh in it to hold the plaster when wet. I don't know what that's called.

    Anyway, the bullet didn't quite penetrate the wall, although it did make a hole on the other side. The mesh stopped it. After crapping my pants, I was kinda impressed with the strength of the wall.

    With dry wall, it would have penetrated on through both walls, I'm pretty sure.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,773 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    FIFY my friend :tooth:

    Now, be fair. That was science, too.....yep.....both for science. I'm like Madame Curie when it comes to sacrificing myself for science.......

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    In an UNscientific experiment we setup 3 wall sections (2 pieces 5/8" drywall over 2x4's) 3 feet apart and fired 9mm, .45acp and 5.56. Both the pistol rounds flew through all 3 section making pretty round holes. The 5.56 (Gold Dot 64gr SP) went threw the first section nice round holes. On the 2nd section, the entry showed a slight yawing but on exit it was really yawing. Entering the 3rd section was a keyhole and didn't make it out the other side. The recovered round had deformed one the nose some but the funny thing was it had somewhat flattened we guess on the broadside strike when key-holing impacts.

    As HD, the worst thing for an AR to me would be the damn report ... an SBR with a can would be okay but you'll blow an eardrum touching off a few rounds of 5.56 indoors ... try it in a shoot house and just feel it the report with hearing protection and you'll see.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,960 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I torched an unintentional discharge with a .38 Special in my den through a plastered wall. The wall had steel wire mesh in it to hold the plaster when wet. I don't know what that's called.

    .
    Wire or Metal Lath.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,176 Senior Member
    Rocketman wrote: »
    I'm guessing bird shot would do the trick
    You have to be careful posting that idea on gun forums
    they will demand you turn in your man card
    because it is not macho enough!

    But, you would be correct within normal household room distances.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    You also have to consider the possibility of going outside with your home defense weapon also where you might have a different set of circumstances than in your home. In my situation, we have an unlit two acre pasture with six horses roaming around on it and the fence is about twenty feet from the back door. We have several loaded weapons in the house but our "go to" weapon is a shotgun with birdshot. Our reasoning is that the birdshot is effective at close range but loses energy very quickly and poses less of a threat to an animal that might be behind our target in the dark.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    The paneling in my living room has a 6.5 MM hole in one corner thanks to a real stupid attack on my part. I opened the bolt on a Swede Mauser, checked the chamber, closed it, and handed the rifle to a friend- - - -"Try the trigger pull". He did, and shot a hole in the wall! I had picked up a round out of the magazine I didn't realize was there when I closed the bolt. A 125 grain Nosler Partition went through the paneling, diagonally through an 8" concrete block, and put a hole in the vinyl siding. That bullet is somewhere out in the front pasture now!
    Jerry
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,754 Senior Member
    I like choices.

    By my bed, I have an:

    AR with 64gr GD
    Shotgun w/ 2-3/4" 00 Buck
    G34 9mm w/ 124gr +p+ Hydra-Shok
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,596 Senior Member
    For those of you who have done the testing and found that handgun rounds penetrate more than rifle (.223) rounds, and those of you with experience in these matters:

    Please elaborate on the disparity of effectiveness in these rounds with regards to SD/HD situations. It has been said on numerous occasions by several members here that handgun rounds offer "poor" performance as man-stoppers, yet we have here some evidence of performance that may appear to contradict that statement.

    For the sake of clarity, please explain the difference between the penetration performance we've read about here, and the overall effectiveness difference between handgun and rifle rounds with regards to stopping a determined threat.

    I need more edjumucation!
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    E=MC2

    Mass × velocity.
    Rifles including 223 have much more speed.
    Edit
    Plus bullet type. Fmj will penetrate steel plate. Frangible bullets disintegrate upon or after impact.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,754 Senior Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    For those of you who have done the testing and found that handgun rounds penetrate more than rifle (.223) rounds, and those of you with experience in these matters:

    Please elaborate on the disparity of effectiveness in these rounds with regards to SD/HD situations. It has been said on numerous occasions by several members here that handgun rounds offer "poor" performance as man-stoppers, yet we have here some evidence of performance that may appear to contradict that statement.

    For the sake of clarity, please explain the difference between the penetration performance we've read about here, and the overall effectiveness difference between handgun and rifle rounds with regards to stopping a determined threat.

    I need more edjumucation!


    In simple terms..........speed kills.

    Rifle cartridges generate more velocity. More velocity results in more hydrostatic shock. More hydrostatic shock results in more catastrophic damage to surrounding tissue (temporary cavity) apart from the permanent cavity caused by the bullet. More bang for your buck!!

    Watered down simple answer.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Also there are some other things that effect the rounds from shape and construction.

    Most SD/HD handgun rounds will be some form of hollow point. While some HPs like Critical Defense use a poly filler to keep the cavity from being plug many have that big empty hole in the nose that drywall will fill and turn it into basically ball ammo which punches thru more layers.

    Looking at the shape and construction of most all 5.56 you'll see are some form of Spitzer or such ... longer and pointy. The shape and longer thinner nose tends to deform easier and induce yaw and destabilize the round. It kinda folllows the reasoning of why heavier thumpers like the .35Rem and such work so much better in bush guns than the Spitzer speeders from say .243Win to .308win. even a small branch can deflect the round and cause it to destabilize, fly erratic and inaccurate. A lighter 5.56 round is easier to destabilize and induce forces on than a larger slower moving hunk of lead.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
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