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Yet another HD/SD question.

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  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,562 Senior Member
    For those of you who have done the testing and found that handgun rounds penetrate more than rifle (.223) rounds, and those of you with experience in these matters:

    Please elaborate on the disparity of effectiveness in these rounds with regards to SD/HD situations. It has been said on numerous occasions by several members here that handgun rounds offer "poor" performance as man-stoppers, yet we have here some evidence of performance that may appear to contradict that statement.

    For the sake of clarity, please explain the difference between the penetration performance we've read about here, and the overall effectiveness difference between handgun and rifle rounds with regards to stopping a determined threat.

    I need more edjumucation!
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    E=MC2

    Mass × velocity.
    Rifles including 223 have much more speed.
    Edit
    Plus bullet type. Fmj will penetrate steel plate. Frangible bullets disintegrate upon or after impact.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,962 Senior Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    For those of you who have done the testing and found that handgun rounds penetrate more than rifle (.223) rounds, and those of you with experience in these matters:

    Please elaborate on the disparity of effectiveness in these rounds with regards to SD/HD situations. It has been said on numerous occasions by several members here that handgun rounds offer "poor" performance as man-stoppers, yet we have here some evidence of performance that may appear to contradict that statement.

    For the sake of clarity, please explain the difference between the penetration performance we've read about here, and the overall effectiveness difference between handgun and rifle rounds with regards to stopping a determined threat.

    I need more edjumucation!


    In simple terms..........speed kills.

    Rifle cartridges generate more velocity. More velocity results in more hydrostatic shock. More hydrostatic shock results in more catastrophic damage to surrounding tissue (temporary cavity) apart from the permanent cavity caused by the bullet. More bang for your buck!!

    Watered down simple answer.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Also there are some other things that effect the rounds from shape and construction.

    Most SD/HD handgun rounds will be some form of hollow point. While some HPs like Critical Defense use a poly filler to keep the cavity from being plug many have that big empty hole in the nose that drywall will fill and turn it into basically ball ammo which punches thru more layers.

    Looking at the shape and construction of most all 5.56 you'll see are some form of Spitzer or such ... longer and pointy. The shape and longer thinner nose tends to deform easier and induce yaw and destabilize the round. It kinda folllows the reasoning of why heavier thumpers like the .35Rem and such work so much better in bush guns than the Spitzer speeders from say .243Win to .308win. even a small branch can deflect the round and cause it to destabilize, fly erratic and inaccurate. A lighter 5.56 round is easier to destabilize and induce forces on than a larger slower moving hunk of lead.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,076 Senior Member
    To one of the original questions of the post: unless you live in a house with huge bedrooms, about any gun will over-penetrate. At short ranges, even with birdshot, you've got a mass that hasn't had time to disperse (in my house, at least.) If you've got drywall. My old house had plaster walls with steel mesh which stopped a .38, but plaster isn't common. All this applies if you miss, that is. Best to not miss.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Speed kills, but getting bludgeoned might end the fight a little more quickly. If you stab me with an ice pick you might inflict a fatal wound, eventually, but if you hit me with a Louisville Slugger it's a lot less likely I'll be in shape to press on with an attack, for the next few seconds, anyhow. A peripheral hit with a fairly slow-moving 230 grain bullet might be a better deterrent to an attacker than a hit in the same place with a 55 grain .223. Either one would get the job done with a central core hit, but under stress, with possibly less than ideal lighting and/or shooting positions, I think I'd err on the side of putting a heavier, albeit slower persuader downrange. A shotgun slug or a densely-packed group of pellets that will have virtually the same effect on a living target would be even better, IMHO.
    Jerry
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,562 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    In simple terms..........speed kills.

    Rifle cartridges generate more velocity. More velocity results in more hydrostatic shock. More hydrostatic shock results in more catastrophic damage to surrounding tissue (temporary cavity) apart from the permanent cavity caused by the bullet. More bang for your buck!!

    Watered down simple answer.

    Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks. :beer:

    These kinds of things can get easily confused in the eyes of the casual reader; I thought it would be helpful to add context to the discussion so that it's not seen as being just about penetration.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,562 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Speed kills, but getting bludgeoned might end the fight a little more quickly. If you stab me with an ice pick you might inflict a fatal wound, eventually, but if you hit me with a Louisville Slugger it's a lot less likely I'll be in shape to press on with an attack, for the next few seconds, anyhow. A peripheral hit with a fairly slow-moving 230 grain bullet might be a better deterrent to an attacker than a hit in the same place with a 55 grain .223. Either one would get the job done with a central core hit, but under stress, with possibly less than ideal lighting and/or shooting positions, I think I'd err on the side of putting a heavier, albeit slower persuader downrange. A shotgun slug or a densely-packed group of pellets that will have virtually the same effect on a living target would be even better, IMHO.
    Jerry

    Again, the wisdom flows..............thanks Jerry!
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,421 Senior Member
    A local PD did some testing on cars. Their 9mms penetrated the car more than the 223 rounds. The 223 were not strong enough for the high velocity hits on the steel. They just disentegrated in most instances. On drywall they were just lasers.

    That's why they developed the 62 grain green tip.
  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,421 Senior Member
    M1 Carbine at my house. Short and easy to manuver around corners and 15 rounds fire quickly with little recoil....backed by a .38spl with laser grips.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    pjames777 wrote: »
    M1 Carbine at my house. Short and easy to manuver around corners and 15 rounds fire quickly with little recoil....backed by a .38spl with laser grips.

    I recently read that Jim Carillo used M1 carbines for clearing buildings while serving the NYPD.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    The paneling in my living room has a 6.5 MM hole in one corner thanks to a real stupid attack on my part. I opened the bolt on a Swede Mauser, checked the chamber, closed it, and handed the rifle to a friend- - - -"Try the trigger pull". He did, and shot a hole in the wall! I had picked up a round out of the magazine I didn't realize was there when I closed the bolt. A 125 grain Nosler Partition went through the paneling, diagonally through an 8" concrete block, and put a hole in the vinyl siding. That bullet is somewhere out in the front pasture now!
    Jerry

    One thing I hate and like about my M-96s Swedish Mausers is the bolt won't close on an empty internal magazine unless you depress it slightly as you close the bolt to ride over it.

    Or like in the unfortunate case you had, when a round is in the magazine :yikes: :yikes:

    I'll bet you heard a few words from Mrs Mary about that incident!
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I like choices.

    By my bed, I have an:

    AR with 64gr GD
    Shotgun w/ 2-3/4" 00 Buck
    G34 9mm w/ 124gr +p+ Hydra-Shok

    Dang, cpj better not try and get in bed wiff you :jester:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,565 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »

    As HD, the worst thing for an AR to me would be the damn report ... an SBR with a can would be okay but you'll blow an eardrum touching off a few rounds of 5.56 indoors ... try it in a shoot house and just feel it the report with hearing protection and you'll see.
    I picked up tinnitus from shooting a .357 without ear protection, outside, some 22+ years ago. And it wasn't that much ammo. I'm sure a 5.56 is worse but....

    I think anything that's sufficient for HD/SD will cause hearing issues if fired indoors.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I picked up tinnitus from shooting a .357 without ear protection, outside, some 22+ years ago. And it wasn't that much ammo. I'm sure a 5.56 is worse but....

    I think anything that's sufficient for HD/SD will cause hearing issues if fired indoors.

    I hated being an AG (Ast Gunner) on the M-60 MG a few times I got stuck with it. Even with ear plugs the muzzle blast pressure from the way you position yourself prone was very irritating and hurt my haid. Being behind the trigger OTOH wasn't bad.

    25MM being fired from a Bradley FV or a TOW missile will get your attention too when you are close outside the vehicle.

    I have touched off a .223 from my Rem 700 a couple times over the years from the bench with hearing protection pulled off to reload or to check targets and I forgot to put it back on , what a LOUD surprise.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 6,744 Senior Member
    When I was a LEO I got to shoot in a live fire "house." the walls were there but there was a catwalk on top of the walls so observers could walk with the students but be out of the way. One room a 10x10 room had a plywood ceiling. Long story short, handguns in the small room with the roof loud, shot guns extreamly loud, AR in 223 ear bleeding loud, Rem 700 308 w t firetruck! We shot with hearing protection while going through the house,but anything above a handgun in a 10x10 room is quite attention grabbing At the end of the day an instructor shot from the catwalk into a room where a couple of us were (against the wall out of the field of fire) that was an eye opening g experience I don't care to repeat. I pray I never have to shoot inside a house.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
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