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Anyone use Lil Gun with gas checked .357 bullets?

BigDanSBigDanS Senior MemberMiami, FL almost in the USA ;)Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
I am researching loads for the .357 and getting ready to load some of these:



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That's between 167.8 and 168.2 gr gas checked and lubed, and I have a choice between 12 BHN and 16 BHN. They are sized to .358 .

I have been loading low powered loads, and now I am going to the other end I am looking to get closer to MAX with this bullet and my powder inventory.

I have the following to choose from:

Lil Gun
Bullseye
Unique
OLD, tin can contained 231
Longshot

Lee lists a max of 17 gr of Lil Gun for a 170 gr jacketed bullet at 35500 CUP . I will be shooting this from a 6 inch Ruger GP 100.



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Thoughts / advice before I work up a load?

D
"A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:

Replies

  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Miami, FL almost in the USA ;)Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Only hateful loads that I've made for the 357 have been made with H110. Unique and 231 ain't gonna get the speed, not sure about the others.

    H110 is at the top of the .357 speed charts, but I have none. Lil Gun and old 231 are the top end.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Miami, FL almost in the USA ;)Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Not close to a book, how many loads listed for that weight bullet? Mine have alsways been 158. Of course 168 is close enough to do a little math and get a starting load I suppose.
    I quit with the hateful stuff, because my cast bullets wouldn't handle H110 speeds. And had no need for the burners anyway. So I switched to mild unique loads. Then came the 430 SJS, and back to stocking H110. Then came powder coating my cast......so I'll once again make some hateful 357.

    None. I have to go with the Lee Modern Reloading Manual Second Edition page 529. I used 170 gr jacketed loads data and I will have to believe the lead bullets do not provide as much back pressure resistance. 168 gr is weighed with lube and gas check. 1500 FPS is over 800 FPE!

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Miami, FL almost in the USA ;)Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    What do they weigh without lube and GC? Just curious, as I've never used GC bullets.

    Gas checks and lube add about 3 gr. The 16 BHN bullets weigh about 161 gr bare, while the 12 bhn COWW bullets weigh in at 165 or so.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • earlyearly Senior Member Thornton COPosts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Watch your COAL. The Ruger has a slightly shorter cylinder than a S&W.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Under a logPosts: 27,457 Senior Member
    I've used Lil Gun, H110, and H4227 for top end loads with gas checked bullets. But they were shot from my single shot rifle, so velocity data would be misleading. Gas checks were my homemade aluminum checks, too, so there's another variable. Bullets (straight wheel weights) were dropped into ice water bath; don't know the hardness, but they were HARD. Sized .358, lubed with my homemade almost crayon hard lube, and gas checks installed. My bullets were also truncated cone nose.

    What I do remember is that Lil Gun gave me the best velocity and the best SD. And the best accuracy.

    About the lower gas backpressure of lead vs. jacketed. My answer to that is 'maybe'. Consider this; we are talking hydraulic pressure on the back of the bullet. Even jacketed will tend to obdurate when hit with that much pressure applied against the base and try to fill the bore. Expansion is limited outward by the barrel bore, and cannot expand forward due to no real resistance at the bullet nose. So it will fill the available space. Same for lead bullets, gas checked or naked base. The DIFFERENCE is that as the lubed lead bullet obdurates in the bore the lube is squeezed out making the bullet have a 'slicker' transit down the barrel, and the bullet is shortened a bit if the pressure is high enough and the lead isn't so hard it doesn't have any pliability.

    IF you want to know for sure, and prove it with 'facts 'n' figures' you'd need 1. a rifle with strain gauge attached, and 2. cast and jacketed bullets with the same length bearing surface to the bore (ignoring the grease grooves presenting missing bearing space). And for the cast bullet testing, bullet lots of varying measured hardness for the testing. I'm not that interested in it........... :tooth:
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Miami, FL almost in the USA ;)Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    IMO Lee is being a little GENEROUS maxing out at 17.0 :yikes:
    Here's my chronograph results from my 6" 686, 164gr LBT and 16.5gr of Li'l Gun in New Hornady cases with CCI SPM primers

    Thanks for that data Paul... What's LBT? Gas checked?

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Under a logPosts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Guessing his reference to LBT is Lead Bullet Technology bullet mold used to mold the bullet. Just guessing. LBT makes some primo bullet molds, BTW.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Under a logPosts: 27,457 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Well, I don't ALWAYS cast that many. When I fire up my pot with certified 20:1 to cast .358" 155gr SWCHP-GC, .458 330gr HP or .430" 250 "Devastator" HP-GC I don't cast as many, since those 3 are single cavity moulds and being HP's have a LOT higher reject rate, especially the .430" mould. I need to have the pin modified to improve its castability.

    Regarding your HP bullet mold and problem with the HP pin, I've modified at least three of my Lee single cavity bullet molds to convert them to HP molds(2 pistol, one rifle). I found that a pin with wide base and sharp transition to the end (tip rounded) gives the easiest release of the bullet. The shallower the slope on the 'side' of the pin, the more it wants to hang onto the bullet when you open the mold.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Dellrose TNPosts: 18,428 Senior Member
    I use H110 and LilGun pretty much interchangeably in my GC 300 grain .45 Colt loads. The LG might have just a bit of a velocity advantage over the 110, but it's a close call either way. I worked up those loads using Unique, but it's a very dirty burning option and Unique has a bad habit of getting pressure spikes as max loads are approached.
    Jerry
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