Bad ideas

Gene LGene L Senior MemberPosts: 10,305 Senior Member
I've seen a bunch, but the one that comes to mind today is the holster that was designed to carry a 1911 in Condition three. You charged the gun by pushing down on the butt of the gun while still holstered, and room was allowed for the slide to go rearward and and then forward to put a round in the chamber. You then drew the loaded firearm out of the holster and took care of business...drawing a cocked and unlocked gun from the holster doesn't seem safe to me.

Anyone remember these, or other not so great ideas?
Not too many problems you can't fix
With a 1911 and a 30-06
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Replies

  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,177 Senior Member
    Yeah....stupid ain't a new thing...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,310 Senior Member
    So most everyone that draws a striker fired gun is stupid? I have a couple with 3 lb triggers and no pretravel, I must be extra stupid.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,305 Senior Member
    Never had a striker fired gun yet that doesn't have a safety on it. It's that thing in the middle of the trigger on most guns. You draw one of these and it's neither cocked nor unlocked. You have to activate the safety to fire the gun.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,310 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Never had a striker fired gun yet that doesn't have a safety on it. It's that thing in the middle of the trigger on most guns. You draw one of these and it's neither cocked nor unlocked. You have to activate the safety to fire the gun.

    Not true. The striker on some guns is partially loaded (cocked) and on others it's 100% loaded as long as you put one in the chamber. Sigs don't have the little trigger dohickey at all. And don't you have to squeeze the trigger on a 1911 as well as the grip safety? What's the difference?
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,305 Senior Member
    No way compatible. You're comparing a striker fired weapon where the gun is only half-cocked with a 1911 on half cock. That won't work. If you grip the 1911 in the way you must to cock, draw, and fire in the holster I mentioned, your hands are in the firing position, with zero safeties in operation. NO ONE recommends carrying a 1911 in that manner, whereas everyone recommends (almost everyone) recommends carrying a Glock as it's meant to be carried. I didn't mean to speak for ALL striker cocked weapons, only the ones I've owned.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,310 Senior Member
    So in either sceniro all you have to do is squeeze the trigger but they don't compare?
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,945 Senior Member
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    The half cock notch seems like a bad idea sometimes. When I decided to hunt with my cap lock rifle, I knew I wasn't gonna tote it like that. Got me a cover for the cap and felt better. Aint no way I'd trust an old Colt hogleg or Winchester lever on that notch either. At least the notch on a 1911 serves as a catch if yer thumb slips as long as your finger is off the trigger, but it still a bit un-needed.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,177 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    So most everyone that draws a striker fired gun is stupid? I have a couple with 3 lb triggers and no pretravel, I must be extra stupid.

    The concept of the holster that Gene is referring to is the stupid I am referring to...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    Wasn't there a Texas Ranger who carried with the grip safety held down with a pace (or piece if you aren't from Texas) of rawhide?i
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Dr. db wrote: »
    Wasn't there a Texas Ranger who carried with the grip safety held down with a pace of rawhide?i

    Charlie Miller IIRC.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,305 Senior Member
    Yep, a long time ago for the clamshells. Back in the day, Model 65s and very high dollar holsters. Took some training to get used to, but it did offer weapon retention. Not too long after that I was no longer in uniform and not restricted to clamshell holsters. They were heavy and covered all but the grips.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,909 Senior Member
    Dr. db wrote: »
    Wasn't there a Texas Ranger who carried with the grip safety held down with a pace (or piece if you aren't from Texas) of rawhide?i

    Depends on what part of Texas you're from. Some parts like big cities pronounce it like a Yankee, Piece phonetically PEEEECE, then you have those more culturally affected areas where you will hear it pronounced Poace, or out west where you hear it pronounced with a shorter twang as Pace. Just depends on what kind a redneck or what part of Texas you're from.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    An old midwest detective I once worked with was very vocal about his opinion of clamshell holsters. His department issued them back when he was in uniform, and it seems that one day while climbing out of his old radio car, somehow the strap caught on something, the clamshell sprang open, and his S&W 27 went skittering across the pavement.

    He like to say he invented some new words that day.
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    LMLarsen wrote: »
    An old midwest detective I once worked with was very vocal about his opinion of clamshell holsters. His department issued them back when he was in uniform, and it seems that one day while climbing out of his old radio car, somehow the strap caught on something, the clamshell sprang open, and his S&W 27 went skittering across the pavement.

    He like to say he invented some new words that day.

    His boss probly told him to geta model 28 :jester:
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • stetsonstetson Member Posts: 42 Member
    Took care of a police station back many years ago and my office had a hole in a wall from ad from Smith&Wesson revolver.Go figure cops monkeying around put a hole in their boss's office.if you don't handle safely any type of firearm while go off.I carry my kimber in half cock with safety on.If I need to engage I can move safety and hammer back in same motion. I tried carrying with hammer cocked with safety on but humans make mistakes and I figured it's better to safe not sorry.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,305 Senior Member
    I had to draw once from a clamshell, and did it pretty fast, or fast enough. A woman pointed a gun at me, which turned out to be a phony gun, which I didn't know at the time, so I'm glad I didn't shoot her which may have been justified. She was crazy. She tossed the phony gun as I drew; her reactions were pretty fast too. Not quite as fast as mine, but I saw her hand moving backwards as I drew and the gun went from pointing at me to an arc downward. I was pissed (as you might understand) but didn't charge her; she was crazy and I was thankful I hadn't shot her and it wasn't a real gun. One of those things a cop runs into. Gabriella Kidd was her name. Her sister was Murdell Kidd, both of them were crazy "Characters" in Athens, GA.

    I can't remember getting into a struggle down on the street with one where security was called for, but they were kinda neat looking and did protect the revolver. I kinda went with the flow when we were issued them, as did everyone else. This was in 1977 or so. Who knew?

    I wasn't in uniform all that long...long enough.

    As for "warning shots" a friend of mine was getting his ass kicked down with a bad guy. He was on his back with a 220 guy on top of him pounding him. My buddy cranked off a round beside the assailant's head which ended the fight, so it's not always a bad choice, even though it was against policy where I worked.

    Back when I was working, a prisoner went to a medical call in Athens (outside our county) for a medical problem, which of course we paid for. He was in cuffs, but the nurse insisted on him being freed. He promptly escaped, knocking over the nurse and the doctor. It was pre-planned, btw, a girlfriend was waiting for him. The deputy guarding him fired a warning round which didn't do any good, but did get some complaints, which I ignored or explained (Athens is in a different county.) The metro liberal LEO called me to half-heartedly complain about it since a citizen had beefed and askd if we were going to take any action for a discharge of a firearm in their jurisdiction. I said no except for a counseling. It filled out their report.

    Anyway, we caught the bastard and his girlfriend about four hours later in a cheap motel. Meaning warning shots do not always stop the action, but sometimes they do. Example 1.

    Pardon me for straying.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • R51MANR51MAN New Member Posts: 20 New Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Never had a striker fired gun yet that doesn't have a safety on it. It's that thing in the middle of the trigger on most guns. You draw one of these and it's neither cocked nor unlocked. You have to activate the safety to fire the gun.
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Not true. The striker on some guns is partially loaded (cocked) and on others it's 100% loaded as long as you put one in the chamber. Sigs don't have the little trigger dohickey at all. And don't you have to squeeze the trigger on a 1911 as well as the grip safety? What's the difference?


    BAMAAK,
    Thought we were talking about "striker fired" guns. Does not apply to 1911s. That is what that pointy thingy is above the "lemon squeezer".
    Called a hammer.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,310 Senior Member
    Read for context much?
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,494 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Read for context much?

    It's a lost art.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • DanoobieDanoobie Member Posts: 95 Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Never had a striker fired gun yet that doesn't have a safety on it. It's that thing in the middle of the trigger on most guns. You draw one of these and it's neither cocked nor unlocked. You have to activate the safety to fire the gun.

    ...and a "safety" which you use in the same motion, with the same finger as the trigger just doesn't seem to scream
    "BAD IDEA!", to you? What if somebody called the edge of a precipice with a 5000 foot drop a "parachute"?
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,737 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    No. Don't want it to fire? Don't pull the trigger. Rocket science!


    Amazing. Isn't it?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • DanoobieDanoobie Member Posts: 95 Member
    Well, you make it sound simple, until the same
    piece of debris contacts the safety, and also
    depresses the trigger.

    I "don't want it to fire", and that's why I use an
    external safety which is separate from the trigger.

    Please, let's not have the patronizing "training"
    discussion, because a lot of these folks having these
    NDs are very well trained LEOs.

    But rude certainly is in style, this month. Have at it.
    Wouldn't you like to call me some undignified name,
    as you overtly infer that I have a single digit IQ?
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    Danoobie wrote: »
    I have a single digit IQ?

    "If it walks, quacks, and flies like a duck- - - - - -"
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    "Very well trained" means squat. Stupidity trumps good training.

    As evidenced by the famous DEA agent who was the only person in the room qualified to handle his sidearm...
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • Jack BurtonJack Burton Member Posts: 379 Member
    -..--...--..-..!
    -..--.-...--!
    .--_--..---..--..-...-.--!
    -..--.---.----.-..---!

    I found this archival western union telegraph exchange circa 1913 of a SAA owner berating one of them newfangled 1911 owner for needing a add-on mechanism to "safe" their firearm. Fascinating stuff!
    Came for the fishing, stayed for the guns.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,494 Senior Member
    Danoobie wrote: »
    Well, you make it sound simple, until the same
    piece of debris contacts the safety, and also
    depresses the trigger.

    I "don't want it to fire", and that's why I use an
    external safety which is separate from the trigger.

    Please, let's not have the patronizing "training"
    discussion, because a lot of these folks having these
    NDs are very well trained LEOs.

    But rude certainly is in style, this month. Have at it.
    Wouldn't you like to call me some undignified name,
    as you overtly infer that I have a single digit IQ?


    You seem a little 'touchy'... You should probably eat more fibre. Personally, I would recommend bran muffins, but any whole grain foodstuff will help. Add fresh greens, too.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • DanoobieDanoobie Member Posts: 95 Member
    "touchy", what an interesting way of phrasing it.
    Sorry, when cellar dwellers who bought a used glock with birthday and
    Christmas money, want to act all patronizing and sanctimonious,
    because they refuse to face the fact they bought a gun which has one of the
    world's worst safety records, I'm not inclined to take any crap.

    You want to defend the incredibly poorly thought out safety design
    on it's merits, fine. But inferring people's
    diet's are wrong, and they are myopically stupid, because they refuse
    to step into line, kowtow, and start sucking down the Perfection Kool
    Aid has nothing to do with the topic, or the gun.

    Consider the whole point of a safety is to avoid a ND. Giving people
    a false sense of security, by putting that
    safety in a position where it is integral with the trigger, is worse than
    no safety at all. As, BTW, countless NDs over the decades, by the trained,
    and the untrained will attest.

    Better check this, LM, I'm sure I misplaced a preposition, or comma, somewhere.
    I'm sure that bad grammar will make this whole post worthless.
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    Nah, it's worthless all on its own.
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,494 Senior Member
    LMLarsen wrote: »
    Nah, it's worthless all on its own.

    BAM! :applause:

    Danoobie, to paraphrase the former Soviet spec ops instructor when asked about his training techniques: They're supposed to be dangerous. They're pistols.

    If somebody is allowing something (errant holster edge, loose clothing, booger hook) to come into contact with the trigger of their firearm at ANY time, for ANY reason... I guess they shouldn't be calling themselves 'highly trained', should they? I would bet a large sum of money (large to me, anyway) that the vast majority of those "countless" NDs were EXACTLY as you labeled them... negligent. I would also bet a larger sum of money that those same "countless" NDs were, in fact, countable... and FAR fewer than fearmongers and Glock haters alike would have us believe.

    I have to let you in on a little secret, one you might have known had you been here longer than somebody waiting at a deli counter; I defend Glocks but I don't really like them. They feel funny in my hand. However, i have an appreciation for stuff that is designed well and does what it is supposed to. Glocks do what they are supposed to. Every time. The problem with Glocks is that stupid people forget that simple fact, as well as other pertinent safety actions... in short, they forget that they are handling an object that is supposed to be dangerous and treat it like it's a paperweight or a glass of milk.

    If my "inferring" your diet offends you, this may not be the place for you. Just sayin'
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
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