Center Axis Relock?

shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior MemberPosts: 5,389 Senior Member
http://www.pointshooting.com/1acar.htm

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/can-center-axis-relock-make-faster-safer-accurate/

I've been seeing more about this pistol technique popping up online, probably at least in part due to its use in the recent "John Wick" sequel. In theory it seems to have some merit, especially in confined quarters, but (as one of the articles states) may not be the best option for general use. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a range that would be okay with me basically monkeying around with my stance (particularly with rapid fire) just to see what it's like.

What sayeth the boards?
- I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
"It's far easier to start out learning to be precise and then speeding up, than it is having never "mastered" the weapon, and trying to be precise." - Dan C

Replies

  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    It makes sense to me for really close range shooting.

    I always practice a magazine or two of "point shooting" before leaving the range. You do NOT need sights for 3-5 yd combat shooting. Especially if the goal is multiple shots in minimal time. Just like throwing a rock, learning to point shoot is nothing more than practicing a reflex.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,082 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Another tool in the arsenal. Something to try and see if it works for you.
    Yep. For instance, I've noticed that with me, if I'm shooting at longer ranges, say 50 yds. or more, Weaver is more stable than Isosceles, and therefore raises my chances of hitting the target from not bloody likely to possible.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    I was shown part of it especially the slight cant using one hand and how the bone alignment in your forearm does make CQB distances easier. The other stuff was so different I'd have to seek real instruction on it but as Wambli has pointed out ... another tool is always good to have. My one concern is if the would I'd fall back on it or the 30+ years of old ways?
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,465 Senior Member
    Something there doesn't quite make sense to me; under the heading of recoil control, the author states: "With the CAR system, recoil is reduced greatly. This reduction is achieved through the use of either of two main stances, and by "locking" the muscles and bones of the arms which is accomplished by slightly canting the gun hand."

    I realize that he put the word 'locking' in quotes, indicating that the meaning of the word in the context of this sentence is not literal, but still, I don't see how one can 'lock' a position in place using arms bent at the joints and muscles. Muscles are entirely dependent upon a person's will to use them, and their relative strength as applied against opposing force; as such, they cannot be 'locked'. Joints can lock, but not muscles...

    I would like to see this demonstrated in live action, to see its proper application.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,834 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Another tool in the arsenal. Something to try and see if it works for you.

    :that:

    That's what I vote for. Another choice, great Ideas.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 5,732 Senior Member
    I was fortunate enough to have had combat pistol training from some really good instructors. They would put us in situations after mastering the basics and told is to "figure it out" using live fire, or simuntions depending on the scenario. Doing "red man" with simuntions is an eyeopining experience. That was great training! Close 3-5 yard two hands. On me, that is a dynamic situation I will tell you afterwards what kept me alive.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,159 Senior Member
    My idea of self defense doesn't allow an already drawn pistol, especially in non-leo situations. I used to be able to draw my 1911 from an Askin's Avenger and shoot one handed (no time to acquire a 90-degree stance) and put five into a pepper popper at arm's length in a VERY short time starting with my hands down by my side at the beeper. I can't remember the actual time, but it was less than two seconds (IIRC.) Drawing the weapon took the most time.

    To me, especially now as a former LEO, skin it and shoot if you're justified. If you have time to acquire a stance, go for it. Practice what you will, but IMO you're better off putting lead downrange than having to think about all the possibilities like elbowing an assailant. It's hard to miss at two yards distance. But I probably could do it.

    Edit: The above is predicated on a surprise attack. I can see where it wouldn't apply: if you hear a bump in the night in your house, you're likely to have time to get a gun and assume a position. No position is perfect, but if you're going to shoot any position, practice it thoroughly.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,347 Senior Member
    Didn't the US Army teach a technique called "Quick Kill" about 40 years ago or more? As I remember it, the first phase of the training was point-shooting with a Daisy BB gun.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,506 Senior Member
    I am open to any thing that will give me an edge and improve my shooting.

    At one of the private ranges i belonged to we had a retired LEO that designed a "fun" weak hand only combat range, there was no timed fire, just as fast as one could get on target, we used pistols, shotguns and rifles, both bolt and semi's. The whole idea was not how good you were but how bad under less than ideal conditions, it was a real time learning experience, if you have never tried to work a right hand bolt action from your left side while lying on the ground behind a barricade, try it.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,159 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Didn't the US Army teach a technique called "Quick Kill" about 40 years ago or more? As I remember it, the first phase of the training was point-shooting with a Daisy BB gun.
    Jerry

    Had it in Ranger School. Started with BB guns shooting at aluminum discs about the size of a silver dollar thrown in the air. Took about an hour to get really good at hitting the discs. Then with M 16s at standard silhoutte targets at close range. The course was about four hours long as I recall.

    BB gun held under your arm and shooting was instinctive. Fun.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    Looks like a technique I saw demonstrated years ago from a USG instructor. He called it the "Steven Seagal" hold.

    But it looked effective for close-contact engagements.
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,002 Senior Member
    Has some usable elements at garlic breath distance, but if you find yourself needing accuracy at distance, lock your damned elbows and wrists!

    I REALLY don't like the idea of teaching a bladed stance to cops or other people who wear body armor for a living. Pointing the arm-hole in your Kevlar at the threat is NOT SMART.

    As most handgun encounters take place at really short distances, it's wise to have a couple techniques in the bag to run that handgun in close that are safe (for you) and don't compromise the reliability of the pistol. That said, you're probably going to have to improvise, as "stance" is something the other guy probably won't let you settle into.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 5,732 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    The funny part is that we spend a lot of time shooting from "positions and grips" when we should find ways to practice shooting from laying on the ground on your back with your weak hand and all sorts of other goofy positions. Have you ever tried drawing and shooting your gun from concealment with your weak hand?
    Mag changes with one hand. Tactical reload with one hand. Start with an empty gun, load and charge one handed.... it's a fun excersize.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,347 Senior Member
    "Yep, the poor guy got killed- - - - -but he had a really stylish stance when the bad guy shot him!"

    "Here lies the body of Johnathan Gray- - - -
    Who died while defending his right-of-way- - - - -
    He was right, dead right, as he sped along- - - - -
    But he's just as dead as if he were wrong!"

    :roll:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,159 Senior Member
    Elk creek wrote: »
    Mag changes with one hand. Tactical reload with one hand. Start with an empty gun, load and charge one handed.... it's a fun excersize.

    If you have to change magazines or if you start with an empty gun, you're in a world of hurt and probably you've already lost. Fun is where you find it. Nothing fun about defending your life; it's dead serious. Games people play to "challenge" others in scenarios that aren't remotely related to real self defense situations are in highly-unlikely situations. It's what got me out of IPSIC decades ago...running, shooting, supposedly related to the real world, when it was only gamesmanship. Which I wouldn't spend the ammo and time to participate in.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 5,732 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    If you have to change magazines or if you start with an empty gun, you're in a world of hurt and probably you've already lost. Fun is where you find it. Nothing fun about defending your life; it's dead serious. Games people play to "challenge" others in scenarios that aren't remotely related to real self defense situations are in highly-unlikely situations. It's what got me out of IPSIC decades ago...running, shooting, supposedly related to the real world, when it was only gamesmanship. Which I wouldn't spend the ammo and time to participate in.
    Agreed, the point is to go through the thought processes and do it. Yes if you get to that point your not in good shape, but, KEEP WORKING! That's the point.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,159 Senior Member
    Ii it is a game, I can understand it. As a practical exercise, not so much. Only so much time and ammo for practice, but if you have plenty of both then game to your heart's content. I believe in practice for the likely, not for the extremely unlikely. Statistics exist on gunfights, and unless you're a tactical LEO, you're not going to be weak-hand reloading, or even reloading at all. Gunfights tend to be nasty, brutish, and short.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    Thanks, Hobbes! :jester:
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
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