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Battle rifle considerations.

JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior MemberPosts: 6,576 Senior Member
In this brainstorm I am talking about contemporary full size battle rifles, not intermediate versions like 5.56mm rifles. So we're talking 7.62x51mm.

I have a friend who runs a DSA SA58 (US made FAL clone); the 16" barrel version. He trains with it, has his armor/chest rig kitted out for it and has gone to it exclusively as his go-to HD/SD/ rifle. He went full scale when he found ZQ1 and PPU M80 ball for $10/20rnds at many retailers.

I've been looking into 7.62 battle rifles for a while. The AR10 is out. I'm not a fan. For SDM/target/hunting rifles I see the merits. Just not a fan.

In the battle rifle world, FAL rifles aren't the lightest nor the heaviest. 16" barrel versions are considerably lighter than the full 21" barrel versions. With plethoras of grip and stock replacement options, it's got potential.

My friend did speak quite honestly that the first 500-1000 rounds he shot was less an exercise in weapon familiarization and more a process of adapting to the significant recoil impulse compared to 5.56 platforms. To watch him shoot the gun now you'd never know. I'd pit him against almost any 5.56 speed shooting drill at this point.

There is less ammo carrying capacity most times. 30 round FAL mags exist, but he's been thus far confident the six 20 round mags he carries is sufficient (4 on the chest rig, one in the gun, one on a kydex belt shingle he made). There is no perfect kit combination, after all, but he still employs an IFAC and comms on his rig.

If I go this route my sit-up and push-up routine is gonna need to get more intense.

I guess I'm just thinking out loud. I'm a fan of 7.62 over 5.56 for its barrier penetrating ability and general authority over its max effective ranges. I'm going to take him up on an offer to join him for some shooting drills and wear his rig for a few 300 round sessions. If this progresses into me buying a rifle, I'll keep y'all apprised.
“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
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Replies

  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    Interesting. Yes, keep us updated.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • Cheetoh734Cheetoh734 Senior Member Posts: 714 Senior Member
    Have you considered the SCAR17?

    ETA: Its a little lighter. ~ .25lbs-.75lbs stock as far as I can find depending on model.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    My thinking is the opposite. The lighter 5.56 platform and ammunition would be highly desirable if I needed to move fast for time prolonged. FMJ ball will penetrate quite a bit if needed.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,576 Senior Member
    Cheetoh734 wrote: »
    Have you considered the SCAR17?

    ETA: Its a little lighter. ~ .25lbs-.75lbs stock as far as I can find depending on model.


    I have. It's the pinnacle of battle rifles right now, me thinks. But my entire FAL setup budgets out to the same as cost as the SCAR17 by itself. Lol
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,576 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    "six 20 round mags he carries is sufficient"

    Not trying to be combatitive just curious. Sufficient for what? My chest rig is set up for my vision of :fan:and it has 12 x 30 round mags loaded with 64gr Gold Dots plus one in the AR. I think if the action will be at a distance I would be ok with less but I envision fast and furious up close or I'm out of here instead.

    I know you want to talk about 7.62 rifles but my next question is how would this be an improvement over a 5.56 for HD/SD.

    Again just looking for understanding. You never know when you'll learn something new.

    That being said, and to your question, if I ever decided I want a 7.62 for that role I'd put down my credit card and fill the paperwork for a SOCOM and never look back for no other reason that I love the platform and I'm very familiar with it.


    Sufficient for short engagements and rapid ingress/egress. I would never consider your rig for quick movements, for example. At least not with respect to be twelve 30 round mag part. Hydration, IFAC, comms, armor, etc on top of twelve 30 round mags? Eh. Not for me.

    If I thought an environment would have engagements being that prolonged I would have a day pack or something with extra mags and keep at most 6 on the chest rig. Or just flat out avoid it, in all honesty. I'm not sure what 360 rounds plus mags of 5.56 weighs, but adding that to 16 pounds of plate armor plus the rest of the rig isn't good, to me.

    setups should be geared towards short patrols and quick movement. If I need more than 120 rounds of 5.56 or 7.62 on a short supply gathering patrol, I have made some serious errors.

    My friend has HD and SD in mind, I don't. Mine it and natural disaster neighborhood protection-minded. I like my 5.56 SBR for HD.

    As to M1A rifles. I want one. But...

    I don't want to buy a $1600 rifle then get a $500+ stock to give it a pistol grip and modern rail system compatibility. DSA makes modern rail systems for their FALs. I still lust for a Scout Squad. Just not to deploy it as described in the OP.

    Just my current trains of thought. :)
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,576 Senior Member
    early wrote: »
    My thinking is the opposite. The lighter 5.56 platform and ammunition would be highly desirable if I needed to move fast for time prolonged. FMJ ball will penetrate quite a bit if needed.


    No provisions for prolonged combat engagements in this setup. That'd be a broader logistical consideration.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,896 Senior Member
    Are you looking at this for duty carry or the apocalypse you seem to long for?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,858 Senior Member
    I've had a couple...an FAL and a CETME,,,and for the life of me, I don't know why I got rid of them. Of the 2 I had a decided preference for the FAL, not that the CETME wouldn't do everything a MBR ought to do - and new/like new magazines were just stupid cheap.Those 240 round battle packs of South American ball ammo were certainly a deal a well.

    I have felt the need for an M1A (set up in an M21 configuration) for a few decades now...but damnit, I just cannot square the cost with that I'm getting.

    I know where there is an affordable FAL and have been casting sidelong glances at it for a spell now....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Sufficient for short engagements and rapid ingress/egress. I would never consider your rig for quick movements, for example. At least not with respect to be twelve 30 round mag part. Hydration, IFAC, comms, armor, etc on top of twelve 30 round mags? Eh. Not for me.

    If I thought an environment would have engagements being that prolonged I would have a day pack or something with extra mags and keep at most 6 on the chest rig. Or just flat out avoid it, in all honesty. I'm not sure what 360 rounds plus mags of 5.56 weighs, but adding that to 16 pounds of plate armor plus the rest of the rig isn't good, to me.

    setups should be geared towards short patrols and quick movement. If I need more than 120 rounds of 5.56 or 7.62 on a short supply gathering patrol, I have made some serious errors.

    My friend has HD and SD in mind, I don't. Mine it and natural disaster neighborhood protection-minded. I like my 5.56 SBR for HD.

    As to M1A rifles. I want one. But...

    I don't want to buy a $1600 rifle then get a $500+ stock to give it a pistol grip and modern rail system compatibility. DSA makes modern rail systems for their FALs. I still lust for a Scout Squad. Just not to deploy it as described in the OP.

    Just my current trains of thought. :)

    You talkin about using this thing on Duty I take it, not just playing? If I was just collecting and playing I'd get a FAL, I love em. To me it's every bit the rifle the M-14 is. But If I'm using it for serious work, I'd go AR or even M-16. I mean, you're real LEO. You can carry full auto without getting a class three license. Then you can carry a bushel of ammo and not much recoil.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    You probably got rid of them to buy some other guns you would shoot more and enjoy realizing you have other rifles that can do what you may/probably never need anyhow... in a pinch.

    Just speculating here............Y2K and all that...................we are still here.................
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,576 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    You talkin about using this thing on Duty I take it, not just playing? If I was just collecting and playing I'd get a FAL, I love em. To me it's every bit the rifle the M-14 is. But If I'm using it for serious work, I'd go AR or even M-16. I mean, you're real LEO. You can carry full auto without getting a class three license. Then you can carry a bushel of ammo and not much recoil.


    Not playing. It's all skill building and practice.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,576 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Are you looking at this for duty carry or the apocalypse you seem to long for?

    Not on duty. Department is 5.56 only.

    I don't long for any apocalypse. But after the close call of Hurricane Matthew, post-storm natural disaster scenarios are rekindled as something I need to get back on track preparation wise.

    If I decide to go from 5.56 to 7.62, I'm weighing the options and considerations in switching from apples to oranges.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,576 Senior Member
    There won't be much issue for worrying about cross-over differences in platforms between training on duty versus off duty for much longer. It'll all be off duty within a year's time.

    So an affinity for one platform over the other will be a matter of personal preference exclusively.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,576 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    You talkin about using this thing on Duty I take it, not just playing? If I was just collecting and playing I'd get a FAL, I love em. To me it's every bit the rifle the M-14 is. But If I'm using it for serious work, I'd go AR or even M-16. I mean, you're real LEO. You can carry full auto without getting a class three license. Then you can carry a bushel of ammo and not much recoil.


    Only if the department issued full auto. They don't.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 7,208 Senior Member
    For ammo, parts and commonality an AR platform would get my nod.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,576 Senior Member
    Elk creek wrote: »
    For ammo, parts and commonality an AR platform would get my nod.

    I'll just consider this the tone of the thread I guess. I'm talking about 7.62 platforms only.

    Once I get to shoot the thing for a few hundred rounds I'll chime back in with my thoughts.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 133 Member
    these threads are entertaining to me.
    the majority of people who buy so called battle rifles never shoot them past 100yds.
    if someone was coming at me in good ole usa, hand me anything and itll be just fine.
    maybe thats why i still have my M1a. dont need anything else.
    would someone please contact the person who can purge and delete my acct? im reducing my cyber footprint for security reasons. thank.
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 7,208 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    I'll just consider this the tone of the thread I guess. I'm talking about 7.62 platforms only.

    Once I get to shoot the thing for a few hundred rounds I'll chime back in with my thoughts.
    I have a 7.62 rifle, a good bolt gun with good glass. That will do for me.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • RocketmanRocketman Banned Posts: 1,118 Senior Member
    Visiting Afghanistan soon?
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Natches had a deal on 7.62 x 51 ammo for awhile.
    I tried to get a couple boxes, but it was a 500 round minimum or something like that.

    If you can get a deal on ammo, it'd be fun.
    I read that some rifles chew brass, and some don't.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,858 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    You probably got rid of them to buy some other guns you would shoot more and enjoy realizing you have other rifles that can do what you may/probably never need anyhow... in a pinch.

    Just speculating here............Y2K and all that...................we are still here.................

    Actually, i gave the CETME, a dozen mags and a couple of battle packs to my cousin, who had never had a use for a semi-auto centerfire rifle...(this was back when there was a lot of "assault rifle" banning talk going on at the time)...I told him he probably wouldn't use it much, but he needed one before he couldn't get one anymore....of course, it was a gateway rifle since he now owns ARs in several configurations....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,058 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    .

    Once I get to shoot the thing for a few hundred rounds I'll chime back in with my thoughts.
    This is an important point and I am glad you are thinking this way----looking forward to your findings, especially if these few 300 round sessions are every day until you
    reach the few intended sessions. Good shooting with your quest.
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    Over the decades, I've owned a Garand, M1A, HK41 and HK91, CETME, FAL, FN49 in .30'06, 7x57 and 8x57, and my favorite battle rifles are the FAL, followed by the FN49, and last but not at all least, a No.4 MK1 Enfield. On any battlefield, I would not feel under-gunned with a good Enfield.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,756 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »

    I don't long for any apocalypse. But after the close call of Hurricane Matthew, post-storm natural disaster scenarios are rekindled as something I need to get back on track preparation wise.

    I'm glad I dont live where some of you do. Post storm prep for me is making sure I have a couple weeks of food in the pantry, and gas for the generator. It goes on longer than that, then my largest concern will still be digging a pit for the outhouse, not wandering around carrying a platoons ammo loadout.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • North ForestNorth Forest Member Posts: 358 Member
    After doing a little research here on the DSA SA58, and with all the available options, I can see why you're considering it. Now I want one. I really want one.....!
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,576 Senior Member
    I'm glad I dont live where some of you do. Post storm prep for me is making sure I have a couple weeks of food in the pantry, and gas for the generator. It goes on longer than that, then my largest concern will still be digging a pit for the outhouse, not wandering around carrying a platoons ammo loadout.

    Food and water provisions notwithstanding, a firearm, ammo, and necessary gear is an important consideration in a natural disaster. A Category 5 hurricane will render a 1000 square mile area a potentially lawless wasteland. Recall Katrina wrecking southern Louisiana? I don't live in a dense population center like New Orleans, but that doesn't mean that me and my trustworthy neighbors wouldn't have to keep an eye out and potentially defend ourselves from roving bands of looters/criminals.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    But why do you think you need a 7.62 for that scienero? Do you 500 yds of open space you need to defend?
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,048 Senior Member
    I've been fortunate enough to shoot the NATO .308 battle rifles - some of them even in full auto - and I've never really been able to get from "like" to "love" with any of them:

    M1A: potentially very accurate, great sights, but no real satisfactory way to scope it.

    HK: Heaviest of the 1950's children and harder recoiling thanks to the massive breech block slamming back and forth - especially if you sling up on one.

    FAL: Probably the smoothest shooting and the lightest, but I never did cozy up to the sights on them. There might be good ways to mount optics, but not at the time I played with them. Logistically, probably the worst of the three for parts of the three "classics".

    I dunno. . .history has largely invalidated the autoloading battle rifle concept in favor of the intermediate power stuff, and as such, the designs never really advanced from their 1950's roots. The .308 was pretty much forced on NATO at the insistence of U.S. match shooters while all of the European players were looking at more AK-like options. We've been seeing a good amount of large game animals taken humanely with the 5.56 when it's loaded right, there's no question you can carry more of it; and thanks to the efforts of Bill and Barack, magazines and parts for the AR-15 are EVERYWHERE. The question becomes one of whether the ability to punch through cinderblocks is worth the weight and recoil.

    IMO, the place for the battle rifle cartridges is in bolt actions that don't require the added weight and bulk of gas systems and action springs. YMMV.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,813 Senior Member
    I shot a lot with the FN FAL when I was much younger. I liked it fine and it ran like a clock. No optics on it. Fast forward several decades and I like my AR-10 even more than the FAL of my youth. It runs like a clock and I have great optics for it. Plus I've customized it for me based on decades of experience with the AR-15. So, I'm not sure why the AR-10 or its copies from various other manufacturers is not contemplated but I think you're limiting your options.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,576 Senior Member
    After doing a little research here on the DSA SA58, and with all the available options, I can see why you're considering it. Now I want one. I really want one.....!

    Ditto. Even if I don't use it as this thread intends, it would be a gun gun and a hell of a pig hunting rig.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
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