Tempers-flare-over-removal-of-confederate-statues-in-New-Orleans

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Replies

  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,706 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    The last time a bunch of outsiders took it upon themselves to come down south and teach us backward rednecks a lesson in the 1860's, it didn't go well for a huge number of them.
    Jerry


    In 1864, General Sherman, (a Yankee) marched through Georgia and pretty well destroyed everything in his path including burning Atlanta to the ground in order to show the people of the South "the heavy hand of war". He had no orders to do this but Lincoln didn't exactly try and stop him and yet now the Union were "good guys" and the Confederacy were evil racists.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    Chicken harvester:

    W0766A.JPG

    Several of my elderly Nashville relatives told me stories they had heard from people who were there during "reconstruction" of union soldiers spearing chickens, ducks, small piglets and other livestock with their bayonets and carrying them off over their shoulders to supplement their rations. Those things probably got more use that way than they did in battle. Old memories like that die hard.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,184 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    In 1864, General Sherman, (a Yankee) marched through Georgia and pretty well destroyed everything in his path including burning Atlanta to the ground in order to show the people of the South "the heavy hand of war". He had no orders to do this but Lincoln didn't exactly try and stop him and yet now the Union were "good guys" and the Confederacy were evil racists.

    Interesting to read about this from both sides.....and how individual authors skew the history to suit their own political/cultural agenda.....According to some authors, Sherman had ordered the destruction of military supplies and the burning of Atlanta was more a case of warehouse fires getting out of control than an ordered destruction of the city....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,184 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Chicken harvester:

    W0766A.JPG

    Several of my elderly Nashville relatives told me stories they had heard from people who were there during "reconstruction" of union soldiers spearing chickens, ducks, small piglets and other livestock with their bayonets and carrying them off over their shoulders to supplement their rations. Those things probably got more use that way than they did in battle. Old memories like that die hard.
    Jerry

    Also a candle holder since the inception of the socket bayonet.....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,550 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Again... 1A does not need a permit. People act like the Nazis had some sort of moral high ground because they had a permit-- they didn't!

    Back to the flag burning thing... If I had a burn permit to torch a bunch of US flags and a bunch of other people showed up to call me a Richard or want to kick my ass... does that somehow give me the moral high ground? Me as a flag burner?

    These people hate other people simply because they exist. I can't stand them! I want to kick their ass. While I respect their 1A rights and will die to protect them, I hate their ideas and what they represent.
    You dont need a permit to exercise your 1A rights, you DO need a permit for a public venue. That is why property rights are so important. They dont have a moral high ground because a white sheet and hood is the same as a black t shirt and bandana. 2 sides, same coin. However they have the LEGAL high ground. If it wasnt for the ANTIFA attacking them, they would have spewed their BS, been ignored like usual, and waddled home after it was over. The ANTIFA has been getting away with rioting and not being called as the hate group they are, just "protestors" who come in with chem, feces bombs, clubs and body armor every time. Well they went up against another group who is just as much of a waste of good air as they are and it didnt work out well.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,550 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Nobody was ready to fight that battle. They won because they had Stonewall Jackson and a few good officers who would lead from the front. It was basically Virginia vs the US Army, at that point, and the Virginians were defending their home ground. This was technically the first blood drawn, since the new Confederate government probably considered Fort Sumter to be a police action (with no man killed) to remove union soldiers from SC sovereign territory.

    Again. Ft Sumpter was ceded to the Fed Govt by the govt of SC. There is a record of it adn it doenst take more than a search on the interwebs to find it, it was not from that time on sovereign SC territory. It was federal land. Federal land that was going to be turned over to SC, until it was attacked 2 days prior to when Anderson was to quit the fort under Federal orders.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,183 Senior Member
    Again. Ft Sumpter was ceded to the Fed Govt by the govt of SC. There is a record of it adn it doenst take more than a search on the interwebs to find it, it was not from that time on sovereign SC territory. It was federal land. Federal land that was going to be turned over to SC, until it was attacked 2 days prior to when Anderson was to quit the fort under Federal orders.

    And that would have happened (the turnover of the fort to SC) except for the duplicitous actions of Lincoln. He sent ships to Fort Sumter to bring in more weapons and powder, and troops to reinforce what were at the fort. And to supposedly resupply them with food. The food resupply is a lie, BTW. The Governor of SC ensured that even after secession that the fort was supplied with all the fresh food they needed, and instructed the commander of the fort to contact him immediately of any problems with food supplies. Hardly an act of war.

    Now about those ships and why the fort was to be loaded with war supplies and personnel. The fort guarded the harbor entrance, and it is known full well by Lincoln's own words that the Morrill Tariff was to be collected. That was a 40% tax placed on ALL imported goods into the South. The ships and what they carried were meant to get a response from SC, and Lincoln got the response he needed to raise troops to, in his words, 'put down the rebellion'.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,919 Senior Member
    sgtrock21 wrote: »
    two things prompted me to revive this thread. #1. The s**tstorm created by trump having the cajones to speak the truth. "hatred from many sides". When you elect a non-politician potus you take that risk. #2. Having to endure watching the statue of a common confederate infantry soldier erected to honor the dead being pulled down and spit on in durham nc. At least the whack-job who secured the strap to the statue was arrested for inciting a riot and intentional destruction of property. omg! Trump tweeted the confederate statues should be left alone.

    i love trump!!!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,643 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I am thinking it should have been a bunch of pissed off southern boys "counter-protesting" :cough: that rally in Charlottesville last weekend. I know they didn't speak for the southerners I know and would resent the heck out of them hijacking my heritage.
    I have visited every former Confederate state with the exception of South Carolina where the civil war started. I never witnessed overt racism or discrimination and was only treated to the traditional Southern hospitality.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,706 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    This whole north south thing...
    Pride, heritage, yada yada.

    No man on either side that committed atrocities real or imagined is alive today. Their offspring don't have a God damned thing to do with any of the aforementioned items.
    Why in the hell does the south continue the grudge? Something gonna change? You expecting reparations? Will the clock be rolled back 150 years and stuff started over?

    Chris, it's not the south that's continuing anything. It's people from the north that moved to the South and want to make things their way. We get it around here all the friggin time with stuff like people moving near one of the bases and then complaining about the noise from the aircraft or buying cheap land near one of the live ranges and complaining about the noise. People FROM THE SOUTH are fine with the various Confederate monuments in various parks accross the South, it's transplants that want to change things.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,343 Senior Member
    But Fishead-- Your statement is ironic considering that you are a transplant that was born and raised in Wisconsin.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,982 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Damn transplants.

    Carpetbaggers
    oh yeah
    I'm a carpetbagger.

    Lot of folks down this way are still fighting the civil war
    if Ya let em and leave them alone, they fine with us being here.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,343 Senior Member
    To be totally honest, being born, raised, and living in Michigan all my life-- that whole unpleasantness over 150 years ago just isn't something that is discussed outside of a history classroom. It is when I head south or talk to southerners is when that stuff gets thrown in my face. I get the pride thing and it is good to know your roots and history, but damn... some people are still bitter about it. We are all Americans now-- black, white, yellow, red... northern, southern... we are in this together.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,183 Senior Member
    Jerm, what you don't GET about the North-South thing has little to do with the Civil War. It's the HUGE difference in the culture of the North and the South. The North was settled by a whole 'nother different group of Europeans than the South. It's not possible to explain in a forum post. But it is worth noting that the Northern colonies were settled by more Northern British, Dutch, and Germans, and the South by, you guessed it, SOUTHERN British people, and Scots and Irish. Culture clash big time.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,648 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Jerm, what you don't GET about the North-South thing has little to do with the Civil War. It's the HUGE difference in the culture of the North and the South. The North was settled by a whole 'nother different group of Europeans than the South. It's not possible to explain in a forum post. But it is worth noting that the Northern colonies were settled by more Northern British, Dutch, and Germans, and the South by, you guessed it, SOUTHERN British people, and Scots and Irish. Culture clash big time.

    Hmmm....hadn't thought about it that way.

    We're fighting (peacefully, I hope) a cultural war between the Dutch and the Irish?

    I'd have never guessed.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,343 Senior Member
    I don't even think you can blame it on ancestry-- The American experience varies widely if only by geography/climate, which leads to huge differences in cultural experiences. Then there is that whole urban/rural thing happening. It is one of our greatest strengths because with the diversity in people/geography/culture also comes with that wonderful diversity in ideas. Unfortunately, it also is a huge source of conflict.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,310 Senior Member
    HBO is coming out with a show about the south spilting from the north as a result of the civil war, set in present day. Slavery is illegal but the civil rights movement hasn't hit the south. should be interesting and pot stirring.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I don't even think you can blame it on ancestry--

    Look on the bright side.

    If we had not of thrown you out of the empire, back when.

    We would be getting the blame for all of this. :roll:

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,706 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    But Fishead-- Your statement is ironic considering that you are a transplant that was born and raised in Wisconsin.

    There's no real irony, I prefer living in the South and have no desire to make it like the North. In my 58 years, I've lived 37 of them in the south.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,698 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    ...It is when I head south or talk to southerners is when that stuff gets thrown in my face. I get the pride thing and it is good to know your roots and history, but damn... some people are still bitter about it. We are all Americans now-- black, white, yellow, red... northern, southern... we are in this together.

    It's a combination of things.

    About the Civil War: Remember that 99% of southerners never owned slaves. Most folks in the south have never heard a family member say that their great, great grand-daddy fought to preserve slavery. In any discussion of the Civil War, with a northerner, this is the first thing that comes up, so naturally, many southerners have dug deep to try to understand what their ancestors fought so hard for. Yankees don't care to dwell on Sherman's March, carpetbaggers, the chronology of how the war began, or any of the Union Army defeats, of which there were many. Likewise, southerners do not care to dwell on the cruelties of slavery, nor do they feel responsible for it's existence in the first place.

    Understand that some very nasty civil strife between black and white has occurred in the north, or California, whose cities were populated by mostly northerners, many of whom were very unkind to the 'Okies' who migrated there during the Great Depression. Also, read up on the nastiness in Boston over school bussing and integration, in the '60's and '70's, or the KKK in Indiana, and other northern states. Then throw in the caricatures of southerners and Texans in the movies for a hundred years.

    But mostly, it's personality. Most of the northerners that are noticed are the loudmouthed urban variety who like to tell us how great it was back at home (where they left) and work themselves into government and immediately start trying to change things to the way they were in the places they fled, for the 'easy pickins' in the south. The stereotypes are all alive and well, on both sides, and we slow talking types have to have a sense of humor about the staccato big city Yankees who think our brains are as slow as our speech.

    I get along well with rural northerners, or any others who are polite. My youngest daughter is married to a Yooper, and I love the guy and get along well with his family. His father and mother live nearby and sometimes we discuss things that are different between us, and I politely avoid subjects that he is obviously ignorant about, and he avoids subjects that I am not ignorant about. Basically, we talk about anything he wants to talk about, until I contradict him, and then we get back to hunting talk, as soon as possible. :tooth:
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,183 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    This whole north south thing...
    Pride, heritage, yada yada.

    No man on either side that committed atrocities real or imagined is alive today. Their offspring don't have a God damned thing to do with any of the aforementioned items.
    Why in the hell does the south continue the grudge? Something gonna change? You expecting reparations? Will the clock be rolled back 150 years and stuff started over?
    I swear folks hold on to that makes ZERO difference in the grand scheme of things. It's like my wife has been cloned.

    In my opinion, this whole argument is more of a left vs. right fight than a north vs. south one......at least currently it is.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,183 Senior Member
    New York State and the City of New York are gonna be needing to change their names. Both are named after a slave trader, James Stuart, the Duke of York. He and the King owned the Royal African Company whose main commodity of trade was slaves. Looks like that chicken that came home to roost in New York is a buzzard. That's the problem with slinging mud; you have to handle it to sling it.

    http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/17/new-york-is-named-after-a-horrendous-slave-trader/

    New York, both the city and the state, is named after the house of York and particularly for James Stuart, then Duke of York, one of the most successful slavers in colonial American history.

    The Duke of York, who later became King James I of England (and James VII of Scotland), created Britain’s greatest slave empire known as the Royal African Company, which transported between 90,000 and 100,000 African slaves to the Caribbean and American colonies between 1672 and 1689.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Cat is out of the bag Chief.

    One view, here is another;

    "A large number of places in the U.S were named after places in England as a result of English settlers and explorers. These are mainly the 13 eastern states which used to be the Thirteen Colonies in the British Empire, especially in the six known collectively as New England.
    Some names were carried over directly and are found throughout the country (such as Manchester, Birmingham and Rochester). Others carry the prefix "New"; for example, the largest city in the US, New York, was named after York because King Charles II gave the land to his brother, James, the Duke of York (later James II).[1][2] Some places, such as Hartford, Connecticut, bear an archaic spelling of an English place (in this case Hertford).
    The American capital Washington, D.C. is named after the first U.S. President George Washington, whose surname was due to his family holding land in Washington, County Durham."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locati...n_English_name



    The City of York;

    Origin of the name
    The word York (Old Norse: Jórvík) derives from the Latinised name for the city, variously rendered as Eboracum, Eburacum or Eburaci. The first mention of York by this name is dated to circa 95–104 AD as an address on a wooden stylus tablet from the Roman fortress of Vindolanda in Northumberland...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York

    You takes your choice.

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    Jerm, if your hometown had been invaded and pillaged by people from Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia and Mississippi, and then the citizens were subjected to military and civilian rule by people who moved there for years afterward, how long would it take for those memories to fade? It's sort of like people who have never served in the military belittling the life experiences of those of us who have put our lives on the line to assure the freedom of those very same people.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,183 Senior Member
    Hey, Shush! :up:
    It's pretty interesting when you think about it; that part about cities and even states here named after some place from overseas. Like St. Augustine, FL, the State of Georgia, New Orleans, and many, many others. The longer they stir the honey pot, the more stink is going to rise.

    Here's another one for ya. The name of my county in TN is Meigs, named after a man named Return Jonathan Meigs, a Colonel in the Continental Army during the American Revolutionary War. (Sorry about that war, but it had to be done! :tooth:). Meigs was later an Indian Agent at Kingston, TN and then later still on the Hiwassee River in what is now the towns of Charleston and Calhoun sitting across the river from one another. (Question: WHO would name their kid Return? Didn't they like him and want to return him for a refund? :uhm:)
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,550 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    And that would have happened (the turnover of the fort to SC) except for the duplicitous actions of Lincoln. He sent ships to Fort Sumter to bring in more weapons and powder, and troops to reinforce what were at the fort. And to supposedly resupply them with food. The food resupply is a lie, BTW. The Governor of SC ensured that even after secession that the fort was supplied with all the fresh food they needed, and instructed the commander of the fort to contact him immediately of any problems with food supplies. Hardly an act of war.

    Now about those ships and why the fort was to be loaded with war supplies and personnel. The fort guarded the harbor entrance, and it is known full well by Lincoln's own words that the Morrill Tariff was to be collected. That was a 40% tax placed on ALL imported goods into the South. The ships and what they carried were meant to get a response from SC, and Lincoln got the response he needed to raise troops to, in his words, 'put down the rebellion'.

    Point 1. The ships carrying the goods didnt make it before or after the deadline or the action against the fort.
    Point 2. we will never know because the Confederates fired upon a Federal fort legally ceded by SC. The fort was NOT resupplied or reinforced and was Federal property
    Point 3, the Star of the West was sent out under the Bucahannon administration 9 Jan and was fired upon by the confeds. (act of war) 250 troops and supply's. The fort was NEVER resupplied after that.
    Point 4, it was the estimation of the Gen Winfield Scott that 20,000 troops would be needed to hold Sumpter.There was no convoy because at the time the entire army was 16000 strong with 5 companies available to reinforce all of the Reb taken forts in 6 states. There was no attempt to reinforce to any degree needed to hold the fort. Scott and Former Pres Bucahannon https://archive.org/stream/privateletterso00scot#page/14/mode/2up Lincoln didnt arrive bringing 20K troops, so he couldnt have reinforced if he wanted to.
    Point 5, Beauregard DID NOT supply Anderson with food, in fact he cut access to mail and market food off on 7 Apr whereupon Anderson on 11 Apr told him that he need not fire because by the 15 they would be starved out. The day Lincoln was inaugurated it was known that Sumpter had a max of 6 weeks provisions.
    Point 6, Anderson agreed to quit the fort at noon on the 15th.
    Point 7, the Confederates had already taken the Charleston arsenal (act of war), transfer of arms blocked from Charlestown arsenal to Moultre were blocked (act of war) SC troops occupy Ft Moultrie and the castle (act of war)

    I am not saying the North was all above board, but the Confederates being all in shiny armor on white horses is revisionist history.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,550 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Jerm, if your hometown had been invaded and pillaged by people from Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia and Mississippi,
    It was.
    and then the citizens were subjected to military and civilian rule by people who moved there for years afterward, how long would it take for those memories to fade?
    Dont know. After they were invaded and burned and pillaged a few times, their side adopted the same tactics but did them better. Then the game changed and they won.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,550 Senior Member
    FYI,

    IMHO, no statue should be pulled down and or removed dealing with either side of the civil war.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    The atrocities committed during "reconstruction" did more to solidify the southern attitudes than any of the battles did. That's when "damyankee" became one word. The economic recovery of most of the south didn't begin in earnest until approximately WW II and the political practice of the "solid South" voting nothing but democrat didn't stop until the 1960's when the party underwent the beginnings of its "progressive" conversion and started pandering to welfare recipients.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • HappySquidHappySquid Member Posts: 287 Member
    I did not read this all but;

    History is to be recorded in writing, sculptures, paintings , buildings, memorials and such more for only ONE thing:

    To teach and learn our (ancestors)offspring what mistakes where made in the past in our world, and the ( sometimes gruelesome) results of that.

    Erasing those recordings will only lead to repetition of the same mistakes.


    (And where is Sam to correct my Grammar and Spelling ;) )
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