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I scratched an itch and this came out.....

BigDanSBigDanS Senior MemberPosts: 6,973 Senior Member
While a large portion of the Forum is in Tennessee having a good time together, I was unfortunately not able to attend. This vexed me.

Sullen and almost broken I wandered over to the Miami Gun Show today and spent hours going over everything. Not a single Makarov! But, there were plenty of Keltec Sub-2000's. I looked at a Gen 1 model that was over priced in green, that had surface rust and was "new in box" according to the dealer, but I rounded the coner and my favorite gun show dealer had several Gen 2's at $399.00 each. I couldn't bite on that immediately, so I wandered the entire show. Shoot Straight generally has everything, and they did have a Sub-20000 but would not budge on the price.

Finally I returned to my vendor that had two G19 based, two G17 based and two G22 based Sub 2K's, and I haggled into it... I now have that carbine to go with my G22 sidearm I have always wanted. It's not 10mm, but it will do...

So instead of traveling to the "Shoot" I spent the money on this!

86078412-C2FC-4B4F-B60F-6C3C5330BA83_zpsbdsoujzn.jpg


EBFE5CB1-B049-42DA-95EE-ED097555F7CD_zps361cziri.jpg


707AB29D-5BA4-4248-AA57-ED49F28E5C73_zpsbvtmlu4v.jpg


26D7B908-0400-429B-AC1F-724204A67BAD_zpsw0luwsh8.jpg


258FB2C9-16BE-4505-B2FA-79D621E11258_zpsowljacf5.jpg

Now to find the time to go and play. I need some Sub 2K .40 S&W loads for accuracy.

D
"A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
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Replies

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,989 Senior Member
    I have always kinda wanted one of those for some reason. Just not enough to take the $400 bite.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,989 Senior Member
    So, I will live vicariously through you.

    Range Report!!!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    One of those in 10mm would be amazing.
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I have always kinda wanted one of those for some reason. Just not enough to take the $400 bite.

    This. I really want to play with one, maybe I could make up my mind for sure then.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    I think those are very usefull tools. Maybe more so than people realize. Good for truck, barn, or even HD. More control and better aim for the novice under stress.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I have always kinda wanted one of those for some reason. Just not enough to take the $400 bite.

    $375 plus tax... new

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    Not that they are the same, but I had a Beretta Storm 40cal carbine and it loved 180gr loads. Plus in the carbine the 180s make some sense because they get some more velocity and become a bit more terminally effective.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Makes sense to me ...

    IMG_0294_zpsh2op5j06.jpg
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    Makes sense to me ...

    IMG_0294_zpsh2op5j06.jpg


    What do you shoot through it? What is your experience with accuracy?

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    I run Lawmen 147gr TMJ for practice since I run it suppressed sometimes and for HD and vehicle times it eats 147gr Gold Dots nicely. Accuracy is okay, I think the sights are part of it but at 100 yards of bags it will do 2"-3" but at 50 yards it will hold 1" groups when done properly and still has enough umph to handle a medium size feral dog.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 6,450 Senior Member
    Looks like fun. You do suck though!
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    Elk creek wrote: »
    Looks like fun. You do suck though!

    Thanks...

    So the conundrum is that the barrel will drive .40 S&W loads another 300 FPS or so past their handgun speeds, potentially too fast for the bullets. I am looking at hot 10mm load information to gauge how they might work in the carbine.

    Longshot will drive a 180 gr XTP to 1150 - 1200 FPS from a handgun, and about 1500 FPS from the rifle . I am thinking this is about the edge for a pistol bullet to perform and stay together. It would make a stout handgun load and equally stout rifle load, making about 500 FPE from a handgun and about 825 FPE from the rifle. Not quite M4 numbers ( 1300 FPE ) , but certainly a lot heavier bullet than a 55 gr. The sectional density is actually pretty close...Seectional Density: 0.160 lb/in² for the .40 at 1400 fps vs. Sectional Density: 0.158 lb/in² for a 55 gr .223 bullet at 3300 fps. So now I need to order some XTP's and try them out. I REALLY want to shoot a hog with this and see how it performs.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    Thanks...

    So the conundrum is that the barrel will drive .40 S&W loads another 300 FPS or so past their handgun speeds, potentially too fast for the bullets. I am looking at hot 10mm load information to gauge how they might work in the carbine.

    Longshot will drive a 180 gr XTP to 1150 - 1200 FPS from a handgun, and about 1500 FPS from the rifle . I am thinking this is about the edge for a pistol bullet to perform and stay together. It would make a stout handgun load and equally stout rifle load, making about 500 FPE from a handgun and about 825 FPE from the rifle. Not quite M4 numbers ( 1300 FPE ) , but certainly a lot heavier bullet than a 55 gr. The sectional density is actually pretty close...Seectional Density: 0.160 lb/in² for the .40 at 1400 fps vs. Sectional Density: 0.158 lb/in² for a 55 gr .223 bullet at 3300 fps. So now I need to order some XTP's and try them out. I REALLY want to shoot a hog with this and see how it performs.

    D

    Dude. Stop. You are doing it again. Stop over thinking this. Zee has pushed the XTP WAY OUTSIDE its boundaries. Just load some ammo and run.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    Dude. Stop. You are doing it again. Stop over thinking this. Zee has pushed the XTP WAY OUTSIDE its boundaries. Just load some ammo and run.

    Yep
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,989 Senior Member
    Final%20XTP%20Load_zps0qtfhlgk.jpg

    Penetrated 4 water jugs at 7 yards.

    10mm%20180gr%20XTP%20%201366%20fps%205_zpsznoutaxx.jpg
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 6,450 Senior Member
    Load, shoot, enjoy, repeat!
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Final%20XTP%20Load_zps0qtfhlgk.jpg

    Penetrated 4 water jugs at 7 yards.

    10mm%20180gr%20XTP%20%201366%20fps%205_zpsznoutaxx.jpg


    That is near my estimated 25 yard velocity. Looks good, thanks.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,094 Senior Member
    I will be SHOCKED if your real world velocity is +300fps over the same load in your G22.

    Not "predicted" velocities by Velocity by the inch, but ACTUAL real world velocities from YOUR guns with the same ammo
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    I will be SHOCKED if your real world velocity is +300fps over the same load in your G22.

    Not "predicted" velocities by Velocity by the inch, but ACTUAL real world velocities from YOUR guns with the same ammo

    Just what I have read from the Kel Tec Owners forum.

    I found this, there...

    155 gr Hornady XTP bullets over Hodgdon Longshot powder, Federal small pistol primer #100. Overall length 1.127 in.

    Grains of powder: Glock(fps); Energy (fpe); Sub 2K (fps); Energy (fpe); Vel diff.
    7.5: 1158; 461; 1364; 640; 206
    7.9: 1201; 496; 1463; 737; 262
    8.2: 1233; 523; 1497; 771; 264
    8.4: 1258; 545; 1532; 808; 274
    8.9: 1304; 585; 1590; 870; 286
    9.3: 1337; 616; 1596; 877; 259
    The red is just to make it easier to follow.



    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    Also this.... 1000 FPE,

    These loads use Nosler 135 gr JHP (#44852) over amounts of Longshot ranging from 8.5 to 11.5 grains.

    Conditions: 69 degrees F, 26% Rel Humidity 29.99 in Hg pressure. Elevation 630 ft. Velocities are 10-round averages. The center of the chronograph was about 3 yards from the muzzle.

    Grains of powder: Glock(fps); Energy (fpe); Sub 2K (fps); Energy (fpe); Vel diff.
    8.5: 1249; 467; 1551; 721; 302
    9.5: 1362; 556; 1679; 845; 317
    10.5: 1416; 601; 1774; 943; 358
    11.5: 1501; 675; 1839; 1013; 338
    Red indicates Sub 2K velocities.

    I cannot imagine that the bullet does anything but SPLAT! when it hits.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Posts: 7,826 Senior Member
    I got one in 9m not long ago, it sure is a hoot to shoot! A lot more accurate than I expected!
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,746 Senior Member
    What is the overall length when folded? I winder if it would fit in the trunk of my trike?

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    gator wrote: »
    What is the overall length when folded? I winder if it would fit in the trunk of my trike?

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

    About 18 inches folded.
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    Well, I think I have come to my senses. My desire to have a 10mm carbine has me wanting to stretch this .40 beyond the limits of the gun. Although hotrodding this is entirely possible, the Kel Tec Owners Group forum members really caution against it on a regular basis. Since it is a simple blowback design, all of the recoil energy is managed by a captured spring in the buttstock tube and the bolt. They do not sell a heavier spring and Wolff does not make one either. There are options to ramp up the gun's abilities, like Kel Tec sells a heavier bolt to assist in lowering felt recoil and a third party sells a buffer bumper for inside the recoil assembly to also dampen felt recoil. I certainly am not afraid of the recoil, but most of the owners agree that heavy loads pound the gun too hard. 180 gr and especially 200 gr should not be used regularly.

    I am guilty of trying to make a bullet do what it is not intended to do, like the Makarov. I have tried to get a Makarov to over 300 FPE, but it really is just a 250 FPE round in a simple blow back design. I eventually had to accede to the facts. I think the same goes here. It would be nice to have an 800 - 1000 FPE setup that worked well and didn't batter the gun, but I think I need to set my sights on 600 to 700 and call it good. That's no slouch either, but I am going to stay in the 155 to 165 gr range with bullets. Most of the Kel Tec owners feel a 180 gr bullet driven fast is too much for the gun. I like the concept of the solid copper bullets. They give a larger bearing surface for accuracy while keeping the weight down. A 125 / 130 gr copper bullet is the size of a 180 gr XTP and can be loaded into that range but is much faster because of the weight difference. Magtech makes a bag of 100 , 130 gr solid copper bullets for $45.00, and that's enough for testing and a box of 50 hunting rounds.

    In addition, Berry's makes some copper plated lead that looks like it has potential. They make a 165 hollow based flat point heavy plated bullet that can be driven to 1500 FPS, that deforms somewhat when it strikes water and has a fairly large bearing surface to improve accuracy. This sounds like it has potential as a deeper penetrating hunting bullet, as the 155 XTP and copper rounds penetrate about 14 to 16" expanded into gel. I have seen videos of jacketed FMJ's travel 50 inches from a .40 / 10mm into gel. So, perhaps a softer, plated bullet will deform a little and penetrate less, and they are about $40 for 250, about $0.16 a round.

    Plated rounds $0.16 +$0.03 primer + $.03 powder is about $.22 per round = $11.00 per 50
    XTP 155 gr = $0.31 per round = $15.50 per 50
    Copper 130 gr = $0.51 per round = $25.50 per 50

    I need to cast some .40's and get my costs down.

    Yes, I am overthinking things, but I want what I want. I certainly have improved my .40 / 10mm knowledge in the past week. FWIW my regular Federal or Remington 180 gr range ammo is already about 1200 FPS and about 600 FPE at muzzle, about the same as a .357 four inch gun at point blank range. Not bad at all...

    Now to make some ammo, and test some accuracy, then test performance.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    What's all the fuss about 'One Silly Millimeter More............'

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDv4iqdwH60
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    The only thing that stinks about the way it folds, is that a red dot would be in the way if you folded it. Wouldn't it? Maybe one of those high speed low drag 45 degree red dot mounts would allow it to fold.

    Midwest Industries makes one that pivots to allow folding butbthe damn thing is $100 mount only ... the whole Kel Toy was only $375 ... plus it is to high off the bore axis for a short range carbine like the Sub2000 for my taste.

    FF to about 1:30 in the video ...
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    The only thing that stinks about the way it folds, is that a red dot would be in the way if you folded it. Wouldn't it? Maybe one of those high speed low drag 45 degree red dot mounts would allow it to fold.
    If it was me, I'd put a scope on it just for load testing. Just to see what it would do.


    Funny you nention that, As I have been playing with it, I have a redesign in mind. It should fold sideways and notfront to back, that way the optics could be on it permanently. It is however in my opinion a 50 yard iron sighted gun. A light and laser could be mounted underneath.

    The thing I have to remember is how cheap it is. Ket Tec sells this to dealers for about $300.00, and retail is $500. I paid $375, about the same as I did for my G22 gen 3 with three magazines. However, imagine a side folder that would accept G20 / G21 magazines and either .45's or 10mm... And of course a stouter recoil management system, dare I say locked breach? The barrel is already threaded.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    Midwest Industries makes one that pivots to allow folding butbthe damn thing is $100 mount only ... the whole Kel Toy was only $375 ... plus it is to high off the bore axis for a short range carbine like the Sub2000 for my taste.

    FF to about 1:30 in the video ...

    Does not look like it co-witnesses either but I like the design even if it is complicated. A decent optic and the mount will exceed the gun value, for sure. I am currently looking at the Hi Viz front sight post replacement. It takes any front sight post an AR15 does. The rear peep is an issue because it isn't well defined for low light use. It needs an outline of some sort. In my opinion it would be a good candidate to have an inset of some type made for it.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,094 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    The rear peep is an issue because it isn't well defined for low light use. It needs an outline of some sort. In my opinion it would be a good candidate to have an inset of some type made for it.

    D
    You apparently don't understand the concept of a peep sight then. You shouldn't be noticing it at all, your eye will naturally center the front sight in it.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Dan, I have thought the same thing and the best thing I've seen is Tademkross's offering ... the peep rear and fiber front is appealing when it have an extra $75 to upgrade.

    https://www.tandemkross.com/KelTec-Sub2000_c_21.html
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
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