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Handgun bullets at 1600 fps ... HP or FMJ FP?

BigDanSBigDanS Senior MemberPosts: 6,973 Senior Member
So, I have had the luxury of taking today to do some research on .40 S&W loads and my new Kel Tec Sub 2000. It appears that the 155 gr Hornady XTP can be driven to almost 1600 fps with Longshot powder. My issue is I have seen Zee's 180 gr XTP hit a water jug at 1336 fps and stay together but flatten out considerably. I am thinking 155 at 1600 with a hollow point is too fast for it, but I like the idea of a .40 moving that fast.

Meanwhile the .40 short and weak doesn't leave a lot of room for powder. The 180 gr XTP only has about .259 inch room for a charge, and the 155 XTP has .328 inches and has been proven by other guys over at the Kel Tec forum to make up 1590 fps with just 8.9 gr of Longshot.

So in looking at bullets, Speer makes a 155 gr TMJ flat point that leaves .353 inches of case room for powder when loaded, and should be able to be driven up to 1650 fps. I don't have a lot of experience with pistol bullets deforming at high speed, but it seems to me given the ballistics it might. At 25 yards it will still be doing more than 1500 FPS, and at 50 yards over 1400 fps. I do not anticipate this gun to anything more than an iron sighted, under 50 yard gun.

I am ordering all three tomorrow. It cannot hurt to have 300 bullets for my 10mm and .40 s&w. I just want to know if the TMJ at 1500 FPS will drill though its target or start to deform.

Any experience to share?

D
"A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
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Replies

  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    Make sure to order milk jugs. Lots and lots of milk jugs. I will be the one holding your beer and eating popcorn.

    Science baby!!!
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    My gut instinct based on hunting and experimenting experience with other cartridges is to use heavy bullets for heavy jobs.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    What I am discovering is there are no bullets designed for the 10mm in a high powered hunting application, like a soft point. Seems like a niche that needs to be filled.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,419 Senior Member
    early wrote: »
    My gut instinct based on hunting and experimenting experience with other cartridges is to use heavy bullets for heavy jobs.

    :applause:
  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,419 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    What I am discovering is there are no bullets designed for the 10mm in a high powered hunting application, like a soft point. Seems like a niche that needs to be filled.

    D

    http://www.shootingtimes.com/hunting/new-2014-federal-trophy-bonded-10mm-ammunition/
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,957 Senior Member
    180gr XTP
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,068 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    180gr XTP
    :that: :win:

    The other option that can handle those impact speed are the federal EFMJ. Midway had the 0.40" 135gr in 500ct boxes CHEAP when Fed "redesigned" them and changed the name. I bought 2 boxes for plinking, but decided to not waste them like that after my wet paper and water testing

    They're SCREAMING from my 10mm and expand wonderfully and HOLD TOGETHER. Very few 40/10mm bullets have at full house 10mm velocities in my testing
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,248 Senior Member
    Depends a lot on what you mean by "target"

    Hard bullets will generally drill. Pointed bullets will generally drill. Soft, flat-nosed or HP bullets might or might not depending on what they encounter on the way..

    I've tinkered with cast alloys quite a bit in jug tests: notably a flat point 230 grain .45 at hardball speed, a 130 grain .32 flat nose rifle bullet at 1250fps (both hard alloy) and a 265 grain Webley conical at about 700 fps (really soft) and all of the above took 7-9 jugs to stop.

    Casting the same .32 bullet out of a nice, chewy 20-1 lead/tin alloy and putting it on top of the same powder charge brought the penetration down to (IIRC) 4 jugs - - 3-4 jugs being on par with typical JHP duty rounds. Got the same result with the same alloy in a 180 grain flat point .40 at about 1350 fps.

    Copper jackets are harder than anything I'll pour into a mold. The only deformation you'll likely see is on a hard enough barrier to disrupt that, or cause slowing enough for the softer lead core to begin moving forward in the jacket, bulging it out. Yes, you might get some on a soft target, and possibly heavy bone, but I wouldn't expect a FNFMJ to disrupt much in meat. Water might mash it out, but that's probably not the most scientific meat analog.
    You'll be counting on placement and bullet meplat to do the trick more than expansion.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    180gr XTP

    It would be my choice as well if it didn't leave just .259 inches of case volume for powder. I am going to try it to see how well it works in the 40 S&W but I suspect there isn't enough case volume. Hodgdon lists it at 8 gr of powder making 1159 fps in a four inch barrel handgun application. My research tells me in a carbine and being a heavier bullet it will gain about 225 fps, or 1350 fps or so which would match your 10mm load. If it does that and is accurate I would be happy.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    :that: :win:

    The other option that can handle those impact speed are the federal EFMJ. Midway had the 0.40" 135gr in 500ct boxes CHEAP when Fed "redesigned" them and changed the name. I bought 2 boxes for plinking, but decided to not waste them like that after my wet paper and water testing

    They're SCREAMING from my 10mm and expand wonderfully and HOLD TOGETHER. Very few 40/10mm bullets have at full house 10mm velocities in my testing

    No EFMJ in the market now...

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    pjames777 wrote: »

    That would be great if they offered just the bullets in 150 or 155 gr.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    And why doesn't Hornady offer the Flexlock Critical Duty bullets in components?

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,957 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    It would be my choice as well if it didn't leave just .259 inches of case volume for powder. I am going to try it to see how well it works in the 40 S&W but I suspect there isn't enough case volume. Hodgdon lists it at 8 gr of powder making 1159 fps in a four inch barrel handgun application. My research tells me in a carbine and being a heavier bullet it will gain about 225 fps, or 1350 fps or so which would match your 10mm load. If it does that and is accurate I would be happy.

    D

    My results:

    G23
    .40 S&W w/ 4.5" LWD Barrel
    180gr XTP
    1.125" COAL
    8.0 gr Longshot
    1,138 fps
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,443 Senior Member
    I need to get back to testing out my ASR in 10mm. It does not like lower velocity 180gr loads at all. I never did get around to trying 155 XTP though. I found that much past 30 yards the accuracy went to in a hurry. Im not sure if this is due to being a pistol cartridge or if its due to the velocity.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    My results:

    G23
    .40 S&W w/ 4.5" LWD Barrel
    180gr XTP
    1.125" COAL
    8.0 gr Longshot
    1,138 fps

    Did you find you had about 1/4 inch of powder in the bottom of the case? Just curious, it seems like so little. Did you use small pistol primers or magnum? Whose primer?

    Thanks...

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,957 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    Did you find you had about 1/4 inch of powder in the bottom of the case? Just curious, it seems like so little. Did you use small pistol primers or magnum? Whose primer?

    Thanks...

    D

    I have no idea how much powder in inches.

    CCI-550 (Small Pistol Magnum)
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • jbohiojbohio Senior Member Posts: 5,572 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    Did you find you had about 1/4 inch of powder in the bottom of the case? Just curious, it seems like so little. Did you use small pistol primers or magnum? Whose primer?

    Thanks...

    D

    You're WAY over thinking this.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,957 Senior Member
    jbohio wrote: »
    You're WAY over thinking this.


    He NEVER does that!

    :jester:
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    jbohio wrote: »
    You're WAY over thinking this.

    Yes, yes I am, and you know I do. As to it's capabilities as a folding plastic gun caliber, 2 inches at 50 yards with irons. It better than you apparently think. When I am done overthinking it, I will know what I want to know.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Well, I don't quite know how to approach this. Hard cast lead or truncated cone bullets are like drill bits in flesh; they don't deform unless they hit a big bone, and then not much. Without knowing the Brinell hardness of the TMJ bullets it's hard to say what they'd do in a flesh medium, but they ARE softer than most wheelweight water quenched bullets........... And with the velocity you're pushing them, anything short of hard cast water quenched and gas checked bullets might give you leading problems even with powder coating.

    Just about any jacketed hollow point bullet in .40 cal. would be just fine for deer or hogs pushed at the velocities you are getting, out to about 75 yards, provided you hit the chewy tootsie roll center of the kill area. Bullet placement is always king even with a less than optimum bullet.

    To get a more realistic test medium than jugs of water, why not make up a few jugs of Jello and shoot them? It's a little more closer to flesh consistency than just a jug of water. Just double up on the amount of Jello per volume of water for a stiffer mix.

    I'm a bit confused as to what you're trying to achieve with this experiment, but that's what I got on it. Trying to use bullets for a pistol caliber at those velocities and expecting it to hold together and expand and penetrate like a rifle bullet is a bit of a stretch, IMHO.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,068 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Trying to use bullets for a pistol caliber at those velocities and expecting it to hold together and expand and penetrate like a rifle bullet is a bit of a stretch, IMHO.
    :win:

    Even pushing MOST of the .400" bullets I've tested at honest to goodness 10mm velocities has been more than most of them can handle.

    The 180 XTP and the 135 EFMJ are the only 2 I've actually been satisfied with my terminal results into wetpack
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,957 Senior Member
    I applaud his testing. I want to see the results.

    Remember, I've push the 240gr XTP in the .430 SJS to over 2,300 fps and killed pigs doing so. Quite a bit faster than Hornady recommends.

    I'm currently pushing rhe 158gr XTP out of my .35 Remington Dominator at close to 2,300 fps as well. That's 900 fps faster than Hornady recommends. And I'm gonna smack a deer or pig with it.

    Science!!!

    Go for it, BigDanS!!!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,705 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    :win:

    Even pushing MOST of the .400" bullets I've tested at honest to goodness 10mm velocities has been more than most of them can handle.

    The 180 XTP and the 135 EFMJ are the only 2 I've actually been satisfied with my terminal results into wetpack
    I haven't tested it; but, there is a 220 gr 10mm hard cast at 1200 fps.
    Probably just supposed to punch a deep hole.
    Shut up-----KAREN; OK Cynthia
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Science!!!

    Go for it, BigDanS!!!
    Those are my thoughts. XTP's in other calibers have been driven way faster than Hornady recommends and have performed well. I am interested to see if the same holds true with the 10mm/40 cal bullets.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    It should maybe be kept in mind that a straight 40 caliber hole punched through the thorax will be quickly lethal. In my experience 50 caliber holes punched through elk with no bullet deformation is pretty darn effective. I wouldn't discount FMJ for hunting when the hole is big enough.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »

    I'm a bit confused as to what you're trying to achieve with this experiment, but that's what I got on it. Trying to use bullets for a pistol caliber at those velocities and expecting it to hold together and expand and penetrate like a rifle bullet is a bit of a stretch, IMHO.

    Mike,

    This little rifle increases the velocity of a .40 S&W significantly depending on bullet weights. A 135 gr bullet can expect a 300 to 325 FPS increase, while a 180 can expect a 150 to 200 FPS increase. It will drive a .40 bullet to 10mm Auto long barrel speeds and it appears most pistol bullets just aren't hard enough to perform well as hunting rounds.

    I can certainly down load this for plinking, but at the top end it becomes problematic to balance between case volume and bullet selection while trying to optimize speed, power and bullet perfromance. The little case just does not hold a lot of powder, so while a 200 gr bullet seems like a good choice, it will have a hard time gaining the velocity it needs based on the powder volume. The Hornady XTP and Nosler 200 HP leave just .2 inches of case volume for powder, so it isn't enough to drive them at best speeds. The 180 XTP leaves just .259 inches of case volume, and the 155 XTP .328 inches of case volume. The 155 is well overdriven at 1600 fps, while the 180 makes 1350 fps or so. My opinion is because these are hollow points and not soft points they over expand for hunting purposes.

    FWIW, the bullets that are best suited to this application are not sold in component form, the Hornady FTX and the Federal Bonded Trophy ( a true soft point ). I certtainly would take the EFMJ's for this application and test.

    For now I will have to make do with the 180 XTP, 155 XTP and 150 FMJ. I have some Berry's plated 165's for comparisions. I have a lot of work ahead of me.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,068 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    FWIW, the bullets that are best suited to this application are not sold in component form, the Hornady FTX and the Federal Bonded Trophy ( a true soft point ).
    The FTX (critical defense/Zmax) do not hold up to 10mm velocities, IME, either.
    10mm-1_zps5f100fb5.jpg
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    Standard JSP's have done well for me in the past. Shooting standard WWB .44 mag 240 gr through my Ruger Carbine.
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    Standard JSP's have done well for me in the past. Shooting standard WWB .44 mag 240 gr through my Ruger Carbine.

    That's the issue.... find me a 10mm soft point. I cannot find any.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,957 Senior Member
    Load the bullets, shoot a pig, do an autopsy, then we learn.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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