Bullpup for home defence

FreezerFreezer Senior MemberPosts: 1,487 Senior Member
http://www.grantcunningham.com/2016/07/steyr-aug-ar-carbine-showdown/

I got to talking to my nephew at a party last weekend. He bought a Styr AUG with a silencer for HD. At first I was thinking "What a Mall Ninja!" but knowing he's an intelligent man I decided to listen to his logic.

Its currently chambered in .223 but he'll be getting a 300BO barrel for it. His thought is the compact design with a red dot scope is easy to handle in the house. The silencer will keep a shot from deafening him so he can still hear his wife and child. He has an under the bed touch safe the keep it safe from his child and easy to get to. I questioned over penetration of the .223 vs 9mm, I haven't had time to research this but according to him the .223 HD ammo he bought will slow down faster than the 9mm because of bullet weight. .223 ammo is cheap and it would be a fun range rifle. Pa now permits semi auto rifle for hunting and in 300 BO it wouldn't be a bad short range deer rifle.

I've never been into compact carbines bullpups or pistol caliber rifles though I have shot a few. The Uzi and Mak10 didn't impress me but the H&K MP5 sure did, not enough to buy one but I was impressed. I'm looking forward to shooting this one, it does look interesting.

For $1500 I could have thought of other firearms I would have bought but..... You thoughts?
I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
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Replies

  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,672 Senior Member
    I am still wanting a Tavor for the same purpose/reasons.

    I have seen multiple tests where 223/5.56 penetrated less building material than your typical HD handgun rounds. I keep my current HD carbine loaded with V-max
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,788 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    I am still wanting a Tavor for the same purpose/reasons.

    I have seen multiple tests where 223/5.56 penetrated less building material than your typical HD handgun rounds. I keep my current HD carbine loaded with V-max

    Fast, light and frangible .5.56 / .223 rounds definately will go splat! The .300 BO rounds not so much.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,788 Senior Member
    In addition, an intergrated suppressed barrel would be the way to go with an HD bullpup.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,945 Senior Member
    The guy did his homework. . .nothing wrong with his choices. . .

    BUT. . .

    I think a lot of folks WAY overthink the HD problem, and the AR-type rifles have become so ubiquitous that it's the only hammer people think of when they consider the nails that need to be pounded The super-short long gun is more of an entry team, go-looking-for-them kind of thing, where for most circumstances, SMART HD will typically involve securing the family, barricading yourself, and preparing to shred whatever comes through the door.

    A $300 Mossberg with a couple hundred bucks spent on ammo and a light is certainly a more cost effective tool for that task, and I would say more effective in general. One .223 round = one .22 caliber hole. One Number 4 buckshot round is potentially THIRTY FOUR .24" pellets = 8.16" of total hole. Which do you think is going to cause faster bleed-out? Use the extra thousand bucks to stash two more identical guns around the house if you're neighborhood really sucks.

    Need range? Keep your slugs in a side saddle. Pull one from there, stuff it in the magazine, cycle the action to replace the buckshot in the chamber. You are now good for a hundred yards.

    Sure, go out and buy a rifle, but save it for the outdoor problems. Yes the shotgun is more pigeonholed to do one job, but it is the absolute king of that job.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    A small thing for carbine/bullpup (especially the AUG & Tevor types) is the POA/POI shift at 20 to 30 feet (inside the home HD distance) when zeroed for say 50 yards. An AR will be about 1 1/2" low but I have seen a Tavor is at least 3" low and the AUG will be in the same neighborhood ... because of their bore axis to sight difference. Yeah, I know the chance if needing a surgically precise shot in HD is infinitely small but it is one thing to remember and practice when preparing.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Small carbines, sub guns, bull pups etc are likely better choices than handguns once in hand. European agencies are good evidence of this.

    Un suppressed examples would surely be loud indoors.

    Nothing allows multi tasking well remaining accessible like a belted handgun.

    Things to consider.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 1,487 Senior Member
    Bigshot, I posed the shotgun thought, his response was 00 buck will go through a wall and keep on going and the blast will deafen you.

    I asked about a pistol which he has, but over penetration and noise were part of his decision. He feels better having both hands and his shoulder on the gun when he in a stressful situation. I asked about the AR platform (I'm not a fan) but barrel length with a suppressor was extreme where as the bullpup will still be manageable.

    The more I think about it, I can't argue with his logic.
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Oh oh yes another great point. BG is holding a hostage with a knife to their throat or using one as a shield, which gun do you want in your hands now?

    Carbine (AR-15)
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,945 Senior Member
    Freezer wrote: »
    Bigshot, I posed the shotgun thought, his response was 00 buck will go through a wall and keep on going and the blast will deafen you.

    I asked about a pistol which he has, but over penetration and noise were part of his decision. He feels better having both hands and his shoulder on the gun when he in a stressful situation. I asked about the AR platform (I'm not a fan) but barrel length with a suppressor was extreme where as the bullpup will still be manageable.

    The more I think about it, I can't argue with his logic.

    What I suggested was, No. 4 buckshot (which individually is about the same diameter, less than half the weight, and a third the speed of a 5.56 round) at least if you're one who wets his jammies at the thought of "overpenetration". If it IS going to be a problem, it will mostly a problem if you miss. . .and we're talking about a slightly modified form of a weapon system intended for whacking tiny little birds flying at 60 MPH to distances of 50 yards. Yet when we start talking about HD, stray projectiles suddenly become not just A, but THE overriding concern when dealing with man-sized silhouettes inside of 20 feet?:bang:

    As to the "deafening muzzle blast", sharpness of that is going to be a factor of bore pressure at the muzzle. Typical handgun rounds start at just under 20,000 psi and go to somewhat over 30,000 psi at the chamber, and only has a less than half inch x less than six inches to expand and reduce that in . 5.56 - 50,000+ psi, expanding into a tiny bore. 12 gauge - less than 12,000psi expanding into a massive 3/4ths x 18" sewer pipe of a barrel. Make no mistake - it's ALL loud, but the shotgun is significantly less ear-shredding for the couple rounds required than most of the other options. For the few rounds the job will require, noise also is not the main concern.

    And NCFUBAR did make a good point - mechanical offset between bore and whatever sighting system you're using on these tall-sighted rifles. On an iron-sighted or cowitnessed optic AR, you've got up to 2.5 inches to compensate for at shorter distances (fine if you think about these things and train for it), and it is a REALLY BAD idea to zero for indoor distances due to the massive upward shift you'll start getting in point of impact if you do have to shoot at longer distances. The bead-sighted shotgun has its sight right on top of the bore - no mental math to perform at the moment off truth.

    Not saying your buddy is wrong in dropping massive coin on a suppressed rifle (probably over three grand by the time he's done with the paperwork). As Ferris Bueller said of his pal's Ferrari "If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up", but I'd hardly say he's picked the optimum tool, considering that the #1 concern is stopping the threat. The farmers with their cheap, slide-action beaters trump the no-budget-cap SeALs on this particular playing field, IMO.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,668 Senior Member
    Or do both with a bullpup shotgun ;)
    http://www.kushnapup.com

    If he is looking for a "reason" to buy a couple of cool toys (AUG and a can), home defense is a good reason. I stopped looking for reasons a long time ago, and just buy cool toys now.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,118 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    ...while the 12 ga Mossberg is relatively easy to master for your average guy (NOT trying to be sexist) I want to see how many folks can convince their kid, wife or petite daughter to practice enough with one to make them proficient with it. Usually one shot and they hand it back to you with a "NO thank you!".

    That's what 20 ga is for! My wife has zero problem shooting hers.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Oh oh yes another great point. BG is holding a hostage with a knife to their throat or using one as a shield, which gun do you want in your hands now?

    And that is why I know (almost like muscle memory) the POA/POI of my HD stuff and exactly what points need the sights on it to strike where the "electricals" go out instead of having to wait for them"hydraulics" to leak out.

    This is a big reason people who just think about getting a firearm and being allowed to carry it kinda do themselves a disservice. Learn, practice and being proficient with you firearm is a lifetime commitment that does not stop. I try to get anyone who remotely thinks they are going to use a firearm to train ... and tell them it could save their life and even possibly mine.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,788 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »

    A $300 Mossberg with a couple hundred bucks spent on ammo and a light is certainly a more cost effective tool for that task, and I would say more effective in general. One .223 round = one .22 caliber hole. One Number 4 buckshot round is potentially THIRTY FOUR .24" pellets = 8.16" of total hole. Which do you think is going to cause faster bleed-out? Use the extra thousand bucks to stash two more identical guns around the house if you're neighborhood really sucks.

    At HD distances, it still is going to be a 12 guage hole. Unless you intend to shoot the BG at 30 feet plus or so.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,271 Senior Member
    I thought only dope dealers used pit bulls as a defensive weapon, and doesn't a pup have to grow up and be abused before it's much of a threat? Now as for that funny looking firearm, what sort of idiot puts the chamber at approximately the shooter's cheek, and the muzzle blast about a foot from his ears?
    :uhm:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 1,487 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Carbine (AR-15)

    I asked that, he pondered that but with a suppressor its off balanced and very long.
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,945 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    You are correct but I have two fast points. Why would I think in terms of ONE .22 caliber hole when I have the ability to deliver 30 of them with GREAT accuracy in a blink if needed?

    I suppose that's true if you blink very slowly. You still need 30 trigger pulls (and potentially justification for each of them) to deliver those 30 projectiles and the clock is ticking against you while that goes on; the shotgun may only need one. At the ranges under discussion, it's plenty accurate enough - potentially more accurate than the tall-sighted rifle if you factor in stress-induced brain farts preventing compensation for height over the bore. In terms of doing unto others before they can do unto you, a quickly-delivered Acme anvil has advantages. The ability to target individual shirt buttons is fine and dandy, but good luck finding the time for it.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,945 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    And, while the 12 ga Mossberg is relatively easy to master for your average guy (NOT trying to be sexist) I want to see how many folks can convince their kid, wife or petite daughter to practice enough with one to make them proficient with it. Usually one shot and they hand it back to you with a "NO thank you!".

    A. Don't screw up a new shooter with full-dram loads

    B. They're who they make low recoil loads for

    C. 20 gauge if recoil or weight of the gun is really that big an issue.

    D. Instruct any shrinking violets to do a Wikipedia search for Kim Rhode, thus illustrating just what a 13 year old girl can do with a 12 gauge shotgun.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 1,487 Senior Member
    Teach, that's what the silencer is for!

    Zee, "Carbine (AR-15)" I asked that too. He said it's to long and off balanced with a silencer. The AUG is shorter with a silencer than the AR is without one.


    http://www.kushnapup.com Damn you Bullsi now you got me wanting one! I have my house set up for retreat and there's a Rem 1100 20 gauge at the last stop. That would be so cool in 410 or 20g and I'm not even into semi autos that ain't for hunting!

    BS correct me if I'm wrong but those lead balls that don't contact the BG will continue through the walls unlike a fragmentable .223, correct? and there's no silencing a shotgun.

    I just can't find anything wrong with his logic and that's why I came here!
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    Freezer wrote: »
    I asked that, he pondered that but with a suppressor its off balanced and very long.

    They make short suppressors these days.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    I suppose that's true if you blink very slowly. You still need 30 trigger pulls (and potentially justification for each of them) to deliver those 30 projectiles and the clock is ticking against you while that goes on; the shotgun may only need one. At the ranges under discussion, it's plenty accurate enough - potentially more accurate than the tall-sighted rifle if you factor in stress-induced brain farts preventing compensation for height over the bore. In terms of doing unto others before they can do unto you, a quickly-delivered Acme anvil has advantages. The ability to target individual shirt buttons is fine and dandy, but good luck finding the time for it.

    Have you ever actually DONE any of the stuff you theorize about? Or, is this just contemplative thought while you're sitting on the ass can?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    Freezer wrote: »

    I just can't find anything wrong with his logic and that's why I came here!

    I am not a bullpup fan. I've run them in the past (FN/P90 & the predecessor bolt gun to "Dessert Tac). I was never able to warm up to them and ditched the concept. I went back to the AR platform and run them from 7" to 16" indoors with/without a can without a problem.

    Quite often, actually.

    In fact, quite a few folks do it with narry an issue.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    Now, some folks run a bullpup with great success. They seem to be quite popular in Europe and such.

    Those that like them.......more power to them. Enjoy and prosper.

    I'm not one of them.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    I think a lot of folks WAY overthink the HD problem, and the AR-type rifles have become so ubiquitous that it's the only hammer people think of when they consider the nails that need to be pounded The super-short long gun is more of an entry team, go-looking-for-them kind of thing, where for most circumstances, SMART HD will typically involve securing the family, barricading yourself, and preparing to shred whatever comes through the door.

    Do you have kids?
    I do. Their rooms are located on the other side of the house from my bedroom. If my front door, back door, or living room window gets kicked in in the middle of the night............my kids are on the other side of all of them. I am NOT going to hunker down behind my bed with a shotgun and hope the bad thing does not come through my door. It has immediately become a "go-looking-for-them" kind of thing. Because, they are now between me and what matters most.

    A $300 Mossberg with a couple hundred bucks spent on ammo and a light is certainly a more cost effective tool for that task, and I would say more effective in general. One .223 round = one .22 caliber hole. One Number 4 buckshot round is potentially THIRTY FOUR .24" pellets = 8.16" of total hole. Which do you think is going to cause faster bleed-out? Use the extra thousand bucks to stash two more identical guns around the house if you're neighborhood really sucks.

    It's 20ish yards from my bedroom to the kids rooms and I have a shot from my door, across the house, to their beds. I will take that shot with a carbine not giving it a second thought. I'd even do it with a pistol. No so much with a shotgun running shot. Or even a slug from a smooth bore.


    Need range? Keep your slugs in a side saddle. Pull one from there, stuff it in the magazine, cycle the action to replace the buckshot in the chamber. You are now good for a hundred yards.

    The beauty of a carbine, I don't HAVE to change ammo! The same load I'd use in my kitchen, I'll use on my front lawn. Easy peasy.


    Sure, go out and buy a rifle, but save it for the outdoor problems. Yes the shotgun is more pigeonholed to do one job, but it is the absolute king of that job.

    Now, while I love a carbine indoors, I also run pistols. I even have 3 shotguns in particular places for particular purposes. So, I am not opposed to or remiss to its attributes. But, it does not possess the glory in my mind it apparently does in yours. And..........I've actually used one. Seen its strengths. Seen it's weaknesses. Know it's purpose.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,624 Senior Member
    Regarding Home Defense, rifles and shotguns are fine if it's in the dead of night and me and the dog are ensconced behind the bed and it's all aimed at the bedroom door. But if I have to venture out into the house, nothing beats the handiness and maneuverability of a handgun. Especially considering that many home invasions occur during daylight while the owner is at home. Why try to run and access a long arm when I have hidden handguns almost always within arm's reach in every room. As for responding outside in the front or back yard to something that went bump in the night - that's not happening.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    A. Don't screw up a new shooter with full-dram loads

    B. They're who they make low recoil loads for

    C. 20 gauge if recoil or weight of the gun is really that big an issue.

    D. Instruct any shrinking violets to do a Wikipedia search for Kim Rhode, thus illustrating just what a 13 year old girl can do with a 12 gauge shotgun.

    If recoil is an issue the 20 Ga. will be plenty, especially with something like No. 4 Buck. Actually, I would feel comfy with a 2 3/4 inch load of number 2 shot at SD ranges inside a house at 15 or 20 feet because unless you have a cyl. bore choke it's not going to spread very wide at that range and Mr. BG will probably turn tail and run if he still can once about 10 or so of those shot bite him. And if he catches the full brunt of that at 20 feet he may not survive.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 1,487 Senior Member
    Oh Snake you have a way of saying what I was afraid to say. My 20g has #2 lead in it. At 15 feet or less it will turn the BG's lung to mush. If the blast doesn't kill him the lead poisoning will. I'll pity the surgeon who has to try to pick a hundred lead pellets out of his carcass if I have a FTF. When I'm scared I have a tendency to empty the mag.

    Its just me and the wife, there's a pistol handy down stairs, a phone on the way, a 357 and 20 gauge at the last stand. This won't be fun for anyone. If I'm in bed they're in more trouble than if I'm down stairs.

    I really don't want to send rounds down field when I miss. Over penetration is a concern for me, name one shoot out where every round from a well trained LEO found its intended target. I'm not well trained and I don't practice regularly. My nephew has done his research and I hope he gets the training and practice he may need. His logic is a real reality for check me.

    Imagine one of those bullpup shotguns and 20 rounds in my hands :fan:
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Now, while I love a carbine indoors, I also run pistols. I even have 3 shotguns in particular places for particular purposes. So, I am not opposed to or remiss to its attributes. But, it does not possess the glory in my mind it apparently does in yours. And..........I've actually used one. Seen its strengths. Seen it's weaknesses. Know it's purpose.

    You're starting to make me think and that could be dangerous. Actually during the day at home or even in the evening before bed time my long guns are locked up in the safes. I usually have my 9mm on my person though at all times or at least within arms reach as is the case right now as I type this. But maybe I should leave a shotgun or two out.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    Freezer wrote: »
    Oh Snake you have a way of saying what I was afraid to say. My 20g has #2 lead in it. At 15 feet or less it will turn the BG's lung to mush. If the blast doesn't kill him the lead poisoning will. I'll pity the surgeon who has to try to pick a hundred lead pellets out of his carcass if I have a FTF. When I'm scared I have a tendency to empty the mag.

    Its just me and the wife, there's a pistol handy down stairs, a phone on the way, a 357 and 20 gauge at the last stand. This won't be fun for anyone. If I'm in bed they're in more trouble than if I'm down stairs.

    I really don't want to send rounds down field when I miss. Over penetration is a concern for me, name one shoot out where every round from a well trained LEO found its intended target. I'm not well trained and I don't practice regularly. My nephew has done his research and I hope he gets the training and practice he may need. His logic is a real reality for check me.

    Imagine one of those bullpup shotguns and 20 rounds in my hands :fan:

    Hey, what all I said was just to make conversation and maybe get somebody to teach me something while sharing my opinion. But my feelings are with you on this. As for me, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on it, and a shot gun and a hand gun is what I'll probably fall back on. But as I always like to say, if you got it, flaunt it.

    I don't think your nephew is suffering from faulty thinking here. I think if he want's to spend that much money, knock himself out. I think he will do just fine with a bull pup. They are great firearms in my opinion. I've always loved the design concept. You get a longer barrel than a handgun without making it unwieldy in tight quarters. I would think they handle great (never shot one so I'm guessing) and I think that should he need to use it, in .223 he's gonna have some seriously dead BGs around.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,672 Senior Member
    A 223/5.56 is one of the few rounds I HAVEN'T treated someone that was shot with.

    Inside 20 feet, I concede that a 12 ga RULES even with birdshot. I've seen the wad from a Federal game load 1oz of #8 shot protruding from the neck of a victim. Fired from a win 1897 exposed hammer. She was dead in the parking lot.

    HOWEVER, in my situation I can't be assured that my target will be within that 20' hence my desire with something with a little more reliable range.
    I'll put my 16" penciled barreled AR against ANY smoothbore 12ga w/ slugs at 50-200 yards accuracy wise
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,945 Senior Member
    Freezer wrote: »
    T
    BS correct me if I'm wrong but those lead balls that don't contact the BG will continue through the walls unlike a fragmentable .223, correct? and there's no silencing a shotgun.

    The fragmentable .223. . .Great if it happens, but it's not something I'd be super-reliant on after a miss. It's going to depend on the round you choose of course (5.56/.223 slugs vary A LOT), but much of that tumble or blow apart characteristic you want is going to be mostly seen in squishy, water-based substances. A main criticism of ballistic testing is that gelatin isn't meat, but it's a lot closer to meat than drywall. The SWAT attraction to 5.56 is that it's less likely to go through an entire HOUSE than pistol slugs or bigger rifle rounds because it's light, and doesn't have as much momentum, comparatively, but don't get the notion that it comes to a screeching halt on the first layer of wet newsprint it encounters. Pretty much anything with the required ballistic chutzpah for self defense is likely to be still be an issue after hitting nothing but a few layers of sheetrock. If you're worried about punch-through with the one, you should have concerns about the other. Hopefully, you've thought the shots through enough in advance to be able to factor the risk/reward on the fly.

    (It's worth it for you to know going in that my prioritization puts having an effective round first, and what it happens if it misses second. Also worth it for you to know that I worry more about ammo not penetrating enough than too much. Doesn't necessarily make me right, but it's where I'm coming from.)

    Perhaps the best way for us all to go home warm and fuzzy after the group hug is to look at Zee's valid point: He's got a legitimate 20 yards indoors and reasons to need to drive tacks at that distance. To me, that's a barely imaginable Palace of Versailles, and it's just me and my wife. If I max out down one hallway from one wall to the next, I might manage a touch over 15. Reality is likely 0 to 7 yards, and I haven't scoped out many homes where I'd reasonably expect a lot more than that. I'm OK with the idea of small-diameter tumbling, fragmenting, cavitating "magic" bullets if I have the luxury of time/distance, but for what I've come to think of as "home defense", I can't consider them ideal. For that, I want the blunt instrument that relies on a lot of unsophisticated diameter and mass, with guaranteed multiple wound tracks (not reliance on fragmentation) for a speedy resolution. High round count is not a driving concern because I don't expect to have the time to burn through it, regardless of whether the outcome is in my favor or not. Your dwelling may vary, and that's probably where one needs to start.

    And you're right in that for the most part, there's no silencing a shotgun. Where I live, there's no silencing anything. We only have degrees of deafness, our politicians being at the peak. :bang:
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
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