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Berry's Plated bullets QC examination by weight

BigDanSBigDanS Senior MemberPosts: 6,973 Senior Member
My Kel Tec Sub 2000 Gen 2 project has me making some .40 ammo. I decided after a lot of contemplation that I will test it first with some heavy plated lead. My reasoning is it will be better to punch a hole as deep and wide clean through a pig as possible than to expect hollow point performance in bullets not designed for these velocities.

I decided to "go rifle" on the creation of my test bullets. For me that means exact charges and exact bullet weights, even if it is a handgun cartridge. After all I am going to shoot these from a rifle, not my g22. I have a box of 250 Berry's 165 gr flat point plated bullets, and I want the loaded bullets to be as close as possible in weight. I sampled 100 of the 250 and created a histogram.

First the packaging is nice. They come in a sturdy storage box that can be used again when the bullets are used up. I plan on storing some cast bullets.

151D7C86-E99B-43D0-93EA-888B733C6B00_zps1vmjxhxl.jpg72C149C9-8C0E-48C2-BE6A-22B1E37746EE_zpsfyo8tlsj.jpg05D268F4-D820-404A-BBB4-AD21DEEDF423_zpsegekokmm.jpg


I wasn't expecting much, considering this is plated lead. I was wrong! Consistency was excellent.

1CC93661-F3E5-4023-9966-49ED63F37985_zpsr2flyakl.jpg

I have seen this kind of weight consistancy in 30-06 165 gr hunting bullets, and I certainly did not expect it from plated lead pistol bullets. These are rated to 1250 FPS.

My test batch of .40S&W will be:

165 gr bullets, 6.9 to 7.8 gr Longshot, CCI 500 primers and Federal once fired brass. I worked up 5 of each weight in .1 gr increments: 6.9, 7.0,... 7.8. I also made 10 test rounds with 7.0 gr charge to zero the gun. Yes I know... it's a bit much, but it's how I roll.

Hodgdon lists these from a .40 S&W with a 4 inch barel at 1091 FPS. The SUB 2000 should push the low end load at 1300 fps, and the high end at 1400 FPS plus. Right now I am just going to test for accuracy at 25 yards with iron sights. I suspect the low end load will be best performance, but I am looking forward to the result. More later.

D
"A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:

Replies

  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    I think they make a heavy plated bullet you can push a few hundred fps after. I've shot a bunch of berrys and not found them that accurate. Prefer Xtreme and rainer in plated.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I think the only Berry"s Bullets I have on hand is some 350 grain .458 dia 45-70 ones. They seem to be pretty good bullets. I tried to weigh one, but my battery operated mini scale maxes out @ 350 grains so an OL...........and a beam balance scale would be not so precise.

    I have used Rainer Ballistics for years in .357/.45 and .44 Cal with no complaints. That is, until I started using Poly Coated from Missouri Bullet Co which I have come to really like.

    At handgun ranges I wouldn't be too worried about the weight variations unless they were really erratic.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Fer fun, I just weighed some Accura plated 124 grain 9mm bullets and they showed less variation than some Speer .44 cal 200 grain Gold Dots. Of course, the heavier the bullet, the more variation I assume.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    At handgun ranges I wouldn't be too worried about the weight variations unless they were really erratic.

    Agreed. There isn't a lot of available gelatin testing of these bullets on the Internet, and what I have found is they penetrate tremendously, like 36 inches of gelatin plus, and at higher speeds may fragment. Pretty consistent with what I expect from a solid lead bullet.

    Their flat point profile and BC of about .16 have them bleeding off energy quickly. If I go by the published data I have seen, the 6.9 gr load at 1300 FPS with a 75 yard zero will have a muzzle energy of about 630 FPE, but bleeds off to 500 FPE at 50 yards and 400 FPE at 100. With a 75 yard zero, it is .5 high at 25 yards 1 inch high at 50 yards, 0 at 75 yards, and , - 2.8 inches at 100 yards. This makes it a point and shoot gun under 100 yards with irons, wich is pretty much my goal. Iron sights, and my eyes, makes anythig at 50 yards a pretty small target.

    FWIW, pushing it to 1425 FPS, what I believe is the top end for this load, makes 756 FPE at muzzle, , 666 FPE 25 yards, , 589 FPE at 50 yards, 525 FPE at 75 yards and 473 at 100 yards. Still, at 100 yards it is more energy than most point blank .357's from a 3 inch barrel. If it can be driven accurately at those velocities, it is pretty darn flat to 100 yards, +0.2 at 25 yards, +0.8 at 50 yards, 0.0 at 75 yards and -2.3 low at 100 yards.

    It's an experiment that may or may not satisfy my OCD need to calculate ballistics and shoot accurately.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,152 Senior Member
    As long as your reinvention of the 38-40 1873 Winchester is going to this extreme - sorting bullets by weight and weighing each charge - you should probably sort the brass by weight too. Heavier case = less internal volume = higher pressure for any given charge, and the smaller the case, the tighter control you want to have. On a big, low pressure round like .45 ACP, I wouldn't sweat it so much, but for the little hot burners like 9mm and .40, it's variable worth looking at. Before I discovered Lapua, I was sorting my .308 competition cases into batches that were all inside of a three grain range. This was using a formula from one of the slide-rule geniuses writing for Precision Shooting Magazine suggesting (IIRC) that a 5-6 grain change in a case that size could equate to addition or subtraction of a tenth of a grain of powder. For cases the size of a .40, you'd probably want to keep 'em inside half to three quarters of a grain.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    If you really want to get persnickety, make sure you trim cases to a consistent length as the amount of crimp will be the biggest variable.

    I like the Lee FCD for pistol cartridges, but I aint trimming them.

    The flat nose on those will do what you want in blunt trauma.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,788 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    It's an experiment that may or may not satisfy my OCD need to calculate ballistics and shoot accurately.

    I have weighed new bullets a couple of times, when trying to solve accuracy problems, but never really came to any conclusion that was worth further investigation. So, I get the general idea, but I would appreciate a brief explanation of your 'graph,' and your conclusions. :uhm:

    Laziness and general dull-wittedness has prevented me from working it out for myself.:tooth:
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Looks like they are all within 7/10ths or so of a grain of the target weight of 165 grains in the middle and those to the left are under desired target weight and those to the right are over. Most are within +- 2/10ths of a grain. The ones dead on are 'Off The Chart' literally :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Now you need a super accurate micrometer to sort each weight by size. Then check their trueness which I bet is further off than anything.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    Agreed. There isn't a lot of available gelatin testing of these bullets on the Internet, and what I have found is they penetrate tremendously, like 36 inches of gelatin plus, and at higher speeds may fragment. Pretty consistent with what I expect from a solid lead bullet.

    Their flat point profile and BC of about .16 have them bleeding off energy quickly. If I go by the published data I have seen, the 6.9 gr load at 1300 FPS with a 75 yard zero will have a muzzle energy of about 630 FPE, but bleeds off to 500 FPE at 50 yards and 400 FPE at 100. With a 75 yard zero, it is .5 high at 25 yards 1 inch high at 50 yards, 0 at 75 yards, and , - 2.8 inches at 100 yards. This makes it a point and shoot gun under 100 yards with irons, wich is pretty much my goal. Iron sights, and my eyes, makes anythig at 50 yards a pretty small target.

    FWIW, pushing it to 1425 FPS, what I believe is the top end for this load, makes 756 FPE at muzzle, , 666 FPE 25 yards, , 589 FPE at 50 yards, 525 FPE at 75 yards and 473 at 100 yards. Still, at 100 yards it is more energy than most point blank .357's from a 3 inch barrel. If it can be driven accurately at those velocities, it is pretty darn flat to 100 yards, +0.2 at 25 yards, +0.8 at 50 yards, 0.0 at 75 yards and -2.3 low at 100 yards.
    Ok O.C.Dan.... what are those projected velocities at those distances? That is what I am interested in.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,635 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    . I've shot a bunch of berrys and not found them that accurate. .
    I bought some loaded ammo that I believe used those
    I thought the same.
    Shut up-----KAREN; OK Cynthia
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Ok O.C.Dan.... what are those projected velocities at those distances? That is what I am interested in.


    At 1300 FPS...

    Range Drop Velocity Mach Energy
    (yd) (in) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs)
    0 -1.5 1310.7 1.174 629.3
    25 0.5 1234.5 1.106 558.3
    50 1 1168 1.046 499.7
    75 0 1111.6 0.996 452.6
    100 -2.8 1064.5 0.953 415.1


    At 1425 FPS

    Range Drop Velocity Energy
    (yd) (in) (ft/s) (ft•lbs)
    0 -1.5 1437.2 756.7
    25 0.2 1348.7 666.3
    50 0.8 1268.5 589.4
    75 0 1197.4 525.2
    100 -2.3 1136.4 473
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 8,049 Senior Member
    I am sure hogs everywhere are 'Liking' this thread.............
    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    So what that is telling me is that with the 1300fps muzzle velocity, you are within the recommended velocity at impact from 25 yards on out. With the 1450 muzzle velocity, you get there at around 50 yards. So if effect of the higher velocity is minimal, your impact velocities most likely will be within the design specs of the bullet.

    You will still need to blow a bunch of milk jugs to Hell though, just to see what happens. In addition, you could make your pool useful, and shoot into that while you are at it... for SCIENCE!!!
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    The neighbors should love that.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    So what that is telling me is that with the 1300fps muzzle velocity, you are within the recommended velocity at impact from 25 yards on out. With the 1450 muzzle velocity, you get there at around 50 yards. So if effect of the higher velocity is minimal, your impact velocities most likely will be within the design specs of the bullet.

    You will still need to blow a bunch of milk jugs to Hell though, just to see what happens. In addition, you could make your pool useful, and shoot into that while you are at it... for SCIENCE!!!

    I don't think he is taking into account that those 1250 FPS rated bullets may start shedding cooper somewhere along the way.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    In addition, you could make your pool useful, and shoot into that while you are at it... for SCIENCE!!!

    4th of July... hmm no one would notice! Is 8 feet deep enough?
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,426 Senior Member
    Go at a 45 degree angle. Gets you a little over 11 feet before bottom.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,152 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    You win the Internet.

    What's the prize for convincing him to compute Coriolis effect over 75 yards for this thing?:tooth:
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    I don't think he is taking into account that those 1250 FPS rated bullets may start shedding cooper somewhere along the way.
    If I remember, those are copper plated bullets. If so, they are basically bonded. Same process used to make Deep Curls and Gold Dots. I don't think it will be an issue, but that is pure speculation.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 20,861 Senior Member
    Rainier rates theirs to 1500fps, I push them over 1800 in the 'wulf and haven't had an issue yet
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Rainier rates theirs to 1500fps, I push them over 1800 in the 'wulf and haven't had an issue yet

    Are they Hp's? How do they perform in media? Have you recovered any?
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    Are they Hp's? How do they perform in media? Have you recovered any?

    The media dies.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 20,861 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    Are they Hp's? YesHow do they perform in media? Devastating Have you recovered any?yep
    Here's the wet-pack before I did anything but lay the 'wulf empty in the hole
    100_1008.jpg

    Here's the recovered bullet and the empty
    100_1009.jpg

    this one I recovered from a doe
    Here it is, still under the hide at the base of her neck. Entry center punched the shoulder on the other side
    bullet1.jpg

    And here's the recovered slug
    bullet2.jpg
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


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