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Danger! Danger! President Trump. An obvious political trap.

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  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,788 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    What I am wondering is if what is publicly known is only the tip of the iceberg? A proper investigation takes time. Even Clinton's joke of an email investigation took a whole lot longer than this has so far. If these parties are innocent like they say, a thorough and proper investigation will reveal that. Obstructing, Tweeting anger, and trying to shut down the investigation will only fuel more public speculation that there really is something stinking in the White House. Trump needs to **** about the whole matter, and get on with the work of the people instead of keeping the whole matter in the headlines constantly. People voted for him to get stuff done, not stew and whine over his persecution.

    You are assuming that there is something to investigate. I think that there is no crime and they just want a fishing expedition, and I am no cheerleader for Donald Trump.They have been investigating Flynn for six months now and have found no evidence of a crime, according to all of the security agency head men. If there had been anything leading to Trump, there would have been an FBI investigation before now. They did this to Cheney and never found anything, so they prosecuted Scooter Libby for some insignificant lie he told about an unrelated subject.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    You are assuming that there is something to investigate.
    There is when he goes on national TV saying he fired Comey to shut down the Russia investigation...
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/12/politics/trump-comey-russia-thing/index.html
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    That single interview where he set out to show the country that he was not under investigation actually caused him to be investigated! He needs to learn when to shut up.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,788 Senior Member
    I'm not defending his character or the stupid things he says, but my point remains: there is no evidence that merits a special prosecutor. When a special prosecutor gets his foot in the door, he investigates until he finds somebody to put on trial for anything, to justify hiring all of his buddies, wielding unlimited power for months or years, and spending a small fortune in the process. It's a big step to take and the decision should not be made lightly.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    His big mouth and what he said on national television gave the assistant AG no choice but to appoint a special investigation. The evidence to justify it is that interview. Ignoring everything that happened or may have happened earlier, when the guy says that he fired the man in charge of investigating his political campaign in an effort to shut it down.... Holy cow! How much more evidence do you want? He freaking said it himself. On national television. How is anyone with even the slightest trace of integrity supposed to ignore that?
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,788 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    His big mouth and what he said on national television gave the assistant AG no choice but to appoint a special investigation. The evidence to justify it is that interview. Ignoring everything that happened or may have happened earlier, when the guy says that he fired the man in charge of investigating his political campaign in an effort to shut it down.... Holy cow! How much more evidence do you want? He freaking said it himself. On national television. How is anyone with even the slightest trace of integrity supposed to ignore that?

    This is a good place to leave it, I reckon. I have questioned your objectivity, so you question my integrity. It can only go downhill from here.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,788 Senior Member
    I said in the first post it is almost certainly not illegal, just has the potential to look bad politically. Clinton getting a **** in the oval office wasn't illegal either, but it sure created a scandal.

    That is good example of why special prosecutors should be avoided, when possible. Ken Starr started out investigating corruption, and couldn't prove it, so he hung in there till something prosecutable came along. Same thing with the Cheney investigation, which only managed a questionable conviction for lying, on Scooter Libby. If Mueller doesn't find anything on obstruction of justice, he will fish around till he can put somebody in jail, for something.

    I'm not saying that lawbreakers shouldn't be prosecuted. I'm just saying that these expensive fishing expeditions are a poor way to do the nation's business, and the taxpayers that want good government hate them.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,635 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    This is a good place to leave it, I reckon. I have questioned your objectivity, so you question my integrity. It can only go downhill from here.

    Yep, the model that usually results is when the bickering lands at the right level it usually ends in someone getting banned. I would sooner opt for withdrawing from the discussion rather than insisting I have the absolute last word on it.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    This is a good place to leave it, I reckon. I have questioned your objectivity, so you question my integrity. It can only go downhill from here.
    You are not understanding me at all. If the assistant AG had even the slightest shred of integrity, he had no choice but to appoint a special investigator. My objectivity? My view all along has been that no matter who won, we were going to have these types of issues. And again, I am basing the justification for the special investigation only on what Trump said during his interview with Lester Holt. Ignore the allegations during the campaign. Ignore the stuff that may or may not have happened after the inauguration and focus specifically on the May, 11 interview where Trump says...
    And in fact when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said 'you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story, it's an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should have won.'

    ....so right there on national television, he opens his mouth and says he fired Comey in an effort to shut down the Russia investigation.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,788 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    And again, I am basing the justification for the special investigation only on what Trump said during his interview with Lester Holt.
    Maybe this is the problem. If you could provide the quote that convinced you, maybe I could get it. I listened to the chopped up CNN video, and I'm not getting the same thing that you got out of it. I heard some disjointed 'Trump-speak,' but no admission.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    The specific quote is in post #44 above.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,788 Senior Member
    I think you will agree that half of the things Trump says can be taken in two or three different ways. I mean, the man is not articulate. When I see the whole thing in context, I don't know what he means, but I assumed that was just a comment saying that he was going to fire the guy anyway, and that he did not care what his tormentors said about it because it was a made-up story, anyway.

    Regardless of what the different interpretations are, it ain't no smoking gun. I'm not trying to just be argumentative here - I honestly don't think there is a chance in hell that any lawyer can prove obstruction of justice, based on anything that has been reported. If there are tapes of the Comey meetings, maybe. That is the only thing I can see that is left to be investigated.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    Again...
    And in fact when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said 'you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story, it's an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should have won.'
    I am saying that had he not said the above remark, there would have not been a special investigator appointed and Trump would not be under investigation for obstruction. His big mouth caused these things to happen. I am completely puzzled why he felt the need to say what he said. The enemy isn't RINOs or Democrats. His enemy is himself.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Regardless of what the different interpretations are, it ain't no smoking gun. I'm not trying to just be argumentative here - I honestly don't think there is a chance in hell that any lawyer can prove obstruction of justice, based on anything that has been reported. If there are tapes of the Comey meetings, maybe. That is the only thing I can see that is left to be investigated.
    One of the interpretations is that it is a smoking gun. Since there is a potential for it to be, the only reasonable thing to do is to investigate and see if there is. I don't see this as a witch hunt. From the interview, we can tell that Trump seems very obsessed with two things.... 1) He is not under investigation. 2) His election is legitimate.

    I think he probably should have stayed on message with the talking points his handlers surely gave him and he may have innocently said the wrong words. Regardless, they can be taken a certain way-- in a very bad way. That legitimately needs to get looked into.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,788 Senior Member
    I'm not disagreeing that he is a pompous jerk, nor that his responses to criticism are not stupid, and dangerous for him. I can even agree that this interview might have tipped the scales for Rosenstein. I'm just arguing the general point that Comey and the the other Justice Department lawyers typically do not choose to indict any politician that they don't think they can successfully prosecute. They didn't with Hilary, so why bother with this?
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I'm just arguing the general point that Comey and the the other Justice Department lawyers typically do not choose to indict any politician that they don't think they can successfully prosecute. They didn't with Hilary, so why bother with this?
    Trump hasn't been indicted, and it is possible that a sitting president may not even be indictable. Clinton was investigated and she was investigated for months. Heck, she may still get herself caught up in this one-- Comey made it clearly known that Lynch was working with her campaign. Regardless, I do not feel Trump should be exempted from scrutiny.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,788 Senior Member
    OK, let's leave it there. I only chimed in because you stated categorically that <"That is all fine and dandy, but he fired Comey to block the Russia investigation in a deliberate effort to obstruct justice"> and I don't think that can be proved. You do believe it, so we just disagree. No problem.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    Dr. db wrote: »
    Never under estimate the tendency of this administration to engage in circular firing squad behavior.

    Now that right there is an interesting but very good way to put it.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    OK, let's leave it there. I only chimed in because you stated categorically that <"That is all fine and dandy, but he fired Comey to block the Russia investigation in a deliberate effort to obstruct justice"> and I don't think that can be proved. You do believe it, so we just disagree. No problem.

    This is where I stand on the subject. I respect Jerm's opinion, but I just disagree. That's what makes the world go round. One of us is right and one of us isn't. When we find out who is where, and It turns out I'm wrong, I will graciously concede. To me, that's the beauty of this place, friends discussing things and we can't always be right, but we try. But we need to remain friends.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,288 Senior Member
    I said in the first post it is almost certainly not illegal, just has the potential to look bad politically. Clinton getting a **** in the oval office wasn't illegal either, but it sure created a scandal.

    It wasn't the **** in the oval office that got him in trouble. It was LYING UNDER OATH about it that got his tail in a crack.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,634 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    It wasn't the **** in the oval office that got him in trouble. It was LYING UNDER OATH about it that got his tail in a crack.
    He did not lie, he just used political speak
    Shut up-----KAREN; OK Cynthia
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Then maybe Trump should have realized that before he fired Comey. It would have saved him a lot of grief.

    Agreed! Trump needs to learn to put Brain in Gear before mouth. He is bad about that. That's what I said. For one thing, he's a piss pour communicator. He talks like a third grader. He talks his ass into a knot and causes his self grief. But a liar? I disagree. But he's a mover and a shaker, he gets things done like nobody before him on either side of the aisle.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,788 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I think it's starting to look like I was right when I said that Trump is a rich old dude with nothing left to do but run for president. He's simply amusing himself.

    I'll believe almost anything about him, but meanwhile, in the midst of all his bumbling around, he has done several things I like, first and foremost being the saving of the Supreme Court from liberal oblivion.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    Just a general statement here. If the shoe doesn't fit you, don't wear it.

    Some of you are letting your red tinted glasses impair your vision. In an alternate universe, had a president Clinton been doing this, you would be demanding a thorough investigation and calling for her crooked head on a plate. You would also be well justified in your outrage.

    My personal view? Something stinks. Badly. Is it because I can't stand the guy? Quite possibly, but do not think that is an endorsement of liberals. I can't stand them either. I figured we were screwed and headed for four years of constant scandal no matter who was elected. All I am trying to do is point out that there are valid concerns outside of the red tinted dogma and am trying to show you where they are in a feeble attempt to help you understand.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • 6EQUJ5 - WOW!6EQUJ5 - WOW! Banned Posts: 482 Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I'll believe almost anything about him, but meanwhile, in the midst of all his bumbling around, he has done several things I like, first and foremost being the saving of the Supreme Court from liberal oblivion.

    Got that right.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,788 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Just a general statement here. If the shoe doesn't fit you, don't wear it.

    Some of you are letting your red tinted glasses impair your vision. In an alternate universe, had a president Clinton been doing this, you would be demanding a thorough investigation and calling for her crooked head on a plate. You would also be well justified in your outrage.

    My personal view? Something stinks. Badly. Is it because I can't stand the guy? Quite possibly, but do not think that is an endorsement of liberals. I can't stand them either. I figured we were screwed and headed for four years of constant scandal no matter who was elected. All I am trying to do is point out that there are valid concerns outside of the red tinted dogma and am trying to show you where they are in a feeble attempt to help you understand.

    That is all well and good, and I have spent as much time as anybody here questioning Trump's legitimacy. But, he won, and we might as well benefit as much as possible, as long as he is trying to keep the promises he made. If he is going to be impeached, it needs to be for something he did, and not just because he is too politically unsophisticated and everybody hates him. Any populist candidate would have a rough time in Washington, D.C., but being a rich, loud-mouthed jerk from NYC multiplies that animosity, exponentially.

    I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt until I become as certain as you seem to be of his guilt. Saying that I am looking through 'red tinted glasses' and implying that I'm simply not capable of understanding is a little bit condescending, but it does at least let me know that you have exhausted all of your legitimate arguments. I have, as well, so I will try my best to quit posting in this thread.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    Apparently, you decided to make that shoe your very own. Whatever. I am not arguing with anyone. Just trying to convey a point of view. If you feel like your character has been called into question and that you feel you have been condescended to, I am doing a very poor job of making my point.

    Have a good day.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    You are assuming that there is something to investigate. I think that there is no crime and they just want a fishing expedition, and I am no cheerleader for Donald Trump.They have been investigating Flynn for six months now and have found no evidence of a crime, according to all of the security agency head men. If there had been anything leading to Trump, there would have been an FBI investigation before now. They did this to Cheney and never found anything, so they prosecuted Scooter Libby for some insignificant lie he told about an unrelated subject.
    An excellent example of why I started this thread.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    OK, let's leave it there. I only chimed in because you stated categorically that <"That is all fine and dandy, but he fired Comey to block the Russia investigation in a deliberate effort to obstruct justice"> and I don't think that can be proved. You do believe it, so we just disagree. No problem.
    That statement disappointed rather than angered me. Opinions should be labeled as such not stated as facts. I agree. No problem.
This discussion has been closed.
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