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Republicans are blowing it.

bisleybisley Senior MemberPosts: 10,798 Senior Member
You cannot campaign for seven years on repealing Obamacare and then replace it with something almost as bad. The hypocrisy here is that both the House and the Senate passed laws that would repeal the worst parts of Obamacare, when Obama was president, and would not sign them. Where are those bills, now that there is a president who actually would sign them? Nowhere to be found - it's like they never existed.

The honest solution to this is Rand Paul's - repeal Obamacare and set a one year time limit for it to go into effect. It keeps the promises made, and forces the Democrats to come in on the replacement aspects, because it stops automatically on a certain date - just gone, unless they help with new bills to offset the 'damage' that they predicted. They can still demagogue the issue for months, but it also makes them responsible if they don't participate with the Republicans who want to keep some of the Obamacare stuff. The conservatives can still oppose the socialistic parts of it, but the moderates in both parties can override them and come up with a legitimate compromise that everybody will be unhappy with - perfect.

The current bill that is supposedly close to passing is Obamacare Lite, soon to be known as Trumpcare, and once it passes, Republicans own it and all of the past failures of Obamacare. Democrats and the media will blame them for the whole mess, and most folks will buy it, after a while. Mitch McConnell is willing to kill the Republican Party to save the establishment status-quo that he has been a part of for decades.

Trump should be pointing all of this out, but he just wants a bill passed so he can check it off the list and move on to tax cuts. It may be a good tactic, but it is a poor strategy.
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Replies

  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    I shall ask questions.

    Why won't the democrats help to fix the mess they made?

    And will being the Party Of No hurt the democrats reelection chances?
  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Posts: 8,059 Senior Member
    I given up hope for either party ever doing anything significant, except more damage to our country!! To many fragile egos involved!! We've digressed to school yard politics!!
  • 6EQUJ5 - WOW!6EQUJ5 - WOW! Banned Posts: 482 Member
    Big Al1 wrote: »
    I given up hope for either party ever doing anything significant, except more damage to our country!! To many fragile egos involved!! We've digressed to school yard politics!!

    Exactly. Well said.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    When congress is a custodian for Wall Street, the drug lobby, and corporate plutocracy, we lose.

    There's a whole world of difference between big money interests being able to apply pressure on legislation and the current obscenity taking place. Separation between church and state? How about separation between state and oligarchy?
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • 6EQUJ5 - WOW!6EQUJ5 - WOW! Banned Posts: 482 Member
    john9001 wrote: »
    I shall ask questions.

    Why won't the democrats help to fix the mess they made?

    And will being the Party Of No hurt the democrats reelection chances?

    At this point I really don't think it matters who is elected. Time and time again the republicans have cowered to special interests and the global elite.
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,281 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I figured that out a few years ago. Which is why I go to work, live my life, and generally (not always)don't give a single flip about politics. Every ing politician is a worthless piece of .

    Tar and pitchfork time is the only way to change it. Demolish K street and ban Lawyers
    would be a good start.

    + term limits. Its apparent both sides are loyal to the same Masters,$$$
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    I occasionally feel all of the emotions expressed above about politicians. But when I'm trying to be objective, I occasionally think I see a few people who genuinely want to serve the country and make things better. Mostly, though, I just think that what we have is all we've got to work with, and if we ignore it, or refuse to participate in it, we have no order whatsoever. Absence of politics equals absence of civil order - anarchy. Those who refuse to understand politics, or choose to ignore politics, become the largest victims of it.

    If the public makes no effort to rein the politicians in, we lose our freedom, plain and simple. It's a battle that can never be completely won, but it can be completely lost.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I figured that out a few years ago. Which is why I go to work, live my life, and generally (not always)don't give a single flip about politics. Every ing politician is a worthless piece of .

    It's mostly been that way since maybe the third or fourth president. Money grubbing congresscritters feathering their nests with graft, and money from the public treasury. Especially when they learned they could buy votes with social programs paid from the public treasury.
    104RFAST wrote: »
    Tar and pitchfork time is the only way to change it. Demolish K street and ban Lawyers
    would be a good start.

    + term limits. Its apparent both sides are loyal to the same Masters,$$$

    Guillotines, and new rope with short drops from tall platforms would be better at getting their attention and getting them in line.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Washington is broke and clowns that run it are broker. What is worse is they like it that way.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Your second to last sentence.....
    How many times have you heard
    "I'm voting for ______, because they are better than ______!"
    "But, they did _____and _____ ."
    "So! They are still better than _____and I have FAITH! I KNOW they will change things. And and least they aren't a damned libtard demonrat!"

    That's why politicians will never be reigned in with our two party system. And unfortunately we will likely never have a viable third party. Waaaaay to many folks sucking the government teet. They've been bought with tax money.

    All of the things you say about politics can just as easily be said about businesses, schools, churches, or any group that has any sort of governing structure. Somebody always has to try and sort it all out, and the good guys are just as heavily attacked as the bad guys.

    At some point in a person's life, they discover themselves in a group where they are the smartest person in the room, and they either embrace it and do the best they can, or fall back and join the critics of whomever did embrace it. It's not something that you ever win. But it may be something that you can improve, for a time, and pass the torch to someone else.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    Big Al1 wrote: »
    I given up hope for either party ever doing anything significant, except more damage to our country!! To many fragile egos involved!! We've digressed to school yard politics!!
    I was thinking daycare.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    You guys piss and moan like you didn't see this coming. The only thing I have hope with is his court appointments, he is trying to raise some hell with immigration but healthcare was dead on arrival. Once they put in the ACA the only thing left is single payer I hope I'm wrong but I don't see a full repeal as much as I wish they would it's not going to happen.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • 6EQUJ5 - WOW!6EQUJ5 - WOW! Banned Posts: 482 Member
    Buford wrote: »
    You guys piss and moan like you didn't see this coming. The only thing I have hope with is his court appointments, he is trying to raise some hell with immigration but healthcare was dead on arrival. Once they put in the ACA the only thing left is single payer I hope I'm wrong but I don't see a full repeal as much as I wish they would it's not going to happen.

    But, but, jeepers Wally, those politicians have an "R" next to their name. . . .
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    You guys piss and moan like you didn't see this coming. The only thing I have hope with is his court appointments, he is trying to raise some hell with immigration but healthcare was dead on arrival. Once they put in the ACA the only thing left is single payer I hope I'm wrong but I don't see a full repeal as much as I wish they would it's not going to happen.

    Both sides want single payer, if you force them to tell the truth. And if THAT happens, the corruption, graft, and outright theft will make Medicare and Medicaid fraud look like small time penny ante stuff.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,521 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    It's a good analogy save for the places you mentioned...one can just leave. Don't like the pastor at the church? Leave. Those places serve few, Govco serves all. Kinda hard to pack up and move to Russia. Or wherever.
    There will never be any radical change from the status quo. The only hope is to keep it the same, not let it get worse. Reality says we will just slow the "getting worse". Never stop it.

    And like Mr Haggard once crooned:

    "When a President goes through the White House door
    Does what he says he'll do
    We'll all be drinkin' that free bubble-ubb
    And eatin' that rainbow stew"

    Free bubble up
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,796 Senior Member
    I think it's more about money than anything else. Both sides are being pressured and bribed by the insurance, medical and pharma lobbyists.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,180 Senior Member
    I think it's more about money than anything else. Both sides are being pressured and bribed by the insurance, medical and pharma lobbyists.

    Money is the root of all evil - or so it's said.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    You guys piss and moan like you didn't see this coming. The only thing I have hope with is his court appointments, he is trying to raise some hell with immigration but healthcare was dead on arrival. Once they put in the ACA the only thing left is single payer I hope I'm wrong but I don't see a full repeal as much as I wish they would it's not going to happen.

    I piss and moan because it isn't a lost cause until they cast the votes. There are a handful of 'repealers' who have stuck to their guns and took a lot of arrows, in hopes that the people would rouse their representatives to do what they said they would do. One of my Senators (Cruz) stuck to it long enough to get an important amendment added to the cluster**** bill that may actually pass. My other Senator (Cornyn) is slinking around behind Mitch McConnell, hoping no one back home will notice. Both will own the new bill if it passes, and the House signs on to it. Neither will be too proud of it when their constituents realize how weak it is. If it passes, Trump and McConnell will walk away from it, and it will never be properly fixed.

    Single payer is one Senate vote away from being set back for at least ten years, if that vote puts health care back into the hands of the people who will be paying for it.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Money is the root of all evil - or so it's said.

    If you're going to quote that book you claim you don't believe in, at least be accurate. "The love of money is the root of all evil". Nothing wrong with money- - - -it's a necessary part of life. Greed and avarice, however, turn a necessity into a tool of the corrupt, greedy, or just downright evil!
    Jerry
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Trump should be pointing all of this out, but he just wants a bill passed so he can check it off the list and move on to tax cuts. It may be a good tactic, but it is a poor strategy.
    Trump has gone on record for repeal and replace, repeal, single payer, and everything else. Everyone should have known that when they voted for him both in the primaries and the actual election. Apparently, nobody seemed to care. His "strategy" is to sign some form of health care reform-- it could be repealing Obamacare and replacing it with the exact same thing (that no Democrats would ever vote for and most Republicans would). It never really mattered. Whatever passes, he will sign. Period. Then we will get to hear how awesome it is from him.

    That is the Trump strategy.... if it is good, it is awesome. If it sucks, it is awesome. If it is meh, it is awesome. It is just a fact of life (and has been very effective for him) that it will be his reaction upon reflection of anything that he does.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Trump has gone on record for repeal and replace, repeal, single payer, and everything else. Everyone should have known that when they voted for him both in the primaries and the actual election. Apparently, nobody seemed to care. His "strategy" is to sign some form of health care reform-- it could be repealing Obamacare and replacing it with the exact same thing (that no Democrats would ever vote for and most Republicans would). It never really mattered. Whatever passes, he will sign. Period. Then we will get to hear how awesome it is from him.

    That is the Trump strategy.... if it is good, it is awesome. If it sucks, it is awesome. If it is meh, it is awesome. It is just a fact of life (and has been very effective for him) that it will be his reaction upon reflection of anything that he does.

    Knowing this, and I agree that many did, it was the best we could do, at the time. The task, then, was for the majority party to craft a good bill before sending it up for its rubber-stamping. But the lazy bastards have become so accustomed to working a few minutes every day between Mitch's naps that they couldn't even take one of the bills (that already had the votes) that Obama wouldn't sign and re-voting it, and sending it up.

    Part of it was laziness, but hypocrisy was the major factor, because many of those who signed on during their campaigns, when they knew it would not be signed, never did have the balls to make it a law that the media would attack them for passing. This was always a possibility, and their fault. But the people who elected or re-elected them are letting them get away with it, now. The politicians bet on short attention spans, and they seem to have been right.

    So blame the politicians - they deserve it, but blame their constituents for not following through. The leftist machine is dominating the town halls that have the politicians cringing in their boots, not the people who elected them.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,180 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    If you're going to quote that book you claim you don't believe in, at least be accurate. "The love of money is the root of all evil". Nothing wrong with money- - - -it's a necessary part of life. Greed and avarice, however, turn a necessity into a tool of the corrupt, greedy, or just downright evil!
    Jerry

    No argument here!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Knowing this, and I agree that many did, it was the best we could do, at the time. The task, then, was for the majority party to craft a good bill before sending it up for its rubber-stamping. But the lazy bastards have become so accustomed to working a few minutes every day between Mitch's naps that they couldn't even take one of the bills (that already had the votes) that Obama wouldn't sign and re-voting it, and sending it up.

    Part of it was laziness, but hypocrisy was the major factor, because many of those who signed on during their campaigns, when they knew it would not be signed, never did have the balls to make it a law that the media would attack them for passing. This was always a possibility, and their fault. But the people who elected or re-elected them are letting them get away with it, now. The politicians bet on short attention spans, and they seem to have been right.

    So blame the politicians - they deserve it, but blame their constituents for not following through. The leftist machine is dominating the town halls that have the politicians cringing in their boots, not the people who elected them.
    I agree with everything you just said. But understand that a real leader could have shaped things differently. We don't have that leadership.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • 6EQUJ5 - WOW!6EQUJ5 - WOW! Banned Posts: 482 Member
    SIGgal wrote: »
    Politics unfortunately is like being a weatherman on television. They get paid a lot of money and never get it right. Sadly, with their position comes power that us common folk will never know, and because of that they know we are powerless to stand up to them. I try to have faith in the system, but it is so far gone :(

    Think globally, act locally. Local politics is far more interesting and that's where it starts IMO.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I agree with everything you just said. But understand that a real leader could have shaped things differently. We don't have that leadership.

    Trump is not a gifted politician, and he is hampered by the fact that many powerful people don't want to let him win, even if winning would benefit the country. That situation is even more unacceptable than having a man with his flaws at the top. He is a populist President that neither party loves, but he was elected by a majority and our Constitution says he can 'rule,' within the powers it sets forth. One party hates him passionately and makes no bones about their refusal to support him, on any issue. The other seems willing to let him fail, at the expense of the country, and the people who voted for him make up most of the votes they also need, to stay in power.

    With all of his many faults, Trump appears to be determined to keep his campaign promises, so there is no point in blaming him for the failures of a Congress that is largely unconcerned about keeping their own campaign promises. They have 'repeal' legislation laying around everywhere that they have all already signed off on, at some point. All they have to do is pick up the best one and vote for it, and they have kept their promise.

    All I am trying to say is that this repeal and replace 'comprehensive' legislation is an unnecessary farce, and that their constituents should have been keeping up with all of this and providing input to them that would make them fearful of reneging on their promises.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    If you're going to quote that book you claim you don't believe in, at least be accurate. "The love of money is the root of all evil". Nothing wrong with money- - - -it's a necessary part of life. Greed and avarice, however, turn a necessity into a tool of the corrupt, greedy, or just downright evil!
    Jerry
    That is how I remembered it. I looked it up to be certain. 1 Timothy 6:10 King James Version
    "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows". Blaming evil on money is similar to saying guns kill people. My personal opinion is that money=power backed up by the saying: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely".
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Both sides want single payer, if you force them to tell the truth. And if THAT happens, the corruption, graft, and outright theft will make Medicare and Medicaid fraud look like small time penny ante stuff.

    THIS!!!
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    The government can't pay for single payer so you taxpayers will have to pay. get ready for your taxes to go way up, at least double.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Yippee. This is what I was hoping for, but thought it was never going to happen with Mitch in charge. This is practically total capitulation on his part, and a huge win for Rand Paul and conservatives...if it really happens. Hopefully, the two year delay for it to go into effect can be negotiated down to one, but even so, it's better than Obamacare Lite. Simply removing the mandates may be enough to stimulate competition among insurers that will solve many of the problems without legislation.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/07/18/trump-to-republicans-lets-repeal-obamacare.html
    Sen. Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., acknowledged the roadblock and, like Trump, said he plans a repeal vote. McConnell also mentioned a two-year delay for a substitute.

    "Regretfully, it's now apparent that the effort to repeal and immediately replace the failure of Obamacare will not be successful," McConnell said in a statement. "So, in the coming days, the Senate will vote to take up the House bill with the first amendment in order being what a majority of the Senate has already supported in 2015 and that was vetoed by then-President Obama: a repeal of Obamacare with a two-year delay to provide for a stable transition period to a patient-centered health care system that gives Americans access to quality, affordable care."

    x
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Now, let's hope they also get around to scrapping the stupid 60-vote threshold for getting anything through the Senate in favor of a simple majority. Then all we need to do is give a few RINO senators their walking papers in 2018 and replace them with real conservatives who don't have a bunch of lobbyists' bribes lining their pockets.
    Jerry
This discussion has been closed.
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