The FBI backs me up- USE A HOLSTER!

bullsi1911bullsi1911 ModeratorPosts: 9,684 Senior Member
Something I have harped on a few times here for us CHL/ CCW holders is "ALWAYS carry in a holster." It's safer. It's better for the gun, and makes it easier to draw in stress, but it was my belief that it showed you as being 'not a dirtbag'.

In my 20 years of carrying, I made it a practice when talking to cops about guns to see if they had ever taken a gun from a criminal that carried in a holster. The answer was always the same- No. People that carry in holsters are cops, legal citizens, and private security. In my mind, this means that having your gun in a holster is not just safer and smart, but it gives you instant "Good Guy" cred with any cops you might encounter in a stressful situation.

Then I came across this while reading the sites this morning:
http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2007/10/10/is-he-carrying-a-gun-more-on-spotting-an-armed-suspect/

In a 15 year study by the FBI, the conclusion is made: "The authors discovered that none of the offenders they interviewed, in 15 years of research, ever used a holster to carry their firearms"

So- Use a holster. It is not just safer, and makes it easier to draw in stress, but it shows the cops that you AREN'T a criminal if you are ever being detained.
To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
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Replies

  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,731 Senior Member
    If the facts that I have my CHL and no criminal history/warrants don't convince them I'm not a "dirt bag" as you called them. I don't see how whether or not my Kahr is in my pocket "naked" or in a holster is going to make a difference either.

    Kind of "doctored" data IMO, since they're JUST asking, "do "dirt bags" use holsters?"
    To me it's comparable to asking cops, "How many dirt bags have you arrested driving a car?" and then coming to the conclusion, "You shouldn't drive a car or the cops will think you're a dirt bag"
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    I won't debate the merit of holsters, because I absolutely agree that they are important. However, the summary of the blog is misleading. If you read the article from the bulletin, http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/2006-pdfs/mar06leb.pdf, it says that "three studies they have conducted
    over the past 15 years" with footnote 1. It's not a 15-year study. I found all 3 studies by the authors from the footnote and had put some information in the parentheses.

    http://www.valorforblue.org/Home/Publications/Soft_Body_Armor_FBI_Law_Enforcement_Bulletin.pdf (published in 1992, 54 deaths)
    http://www.policemag.com/resources/Design-Elements/FBI-In-the-Line-of-Fire.pdf (published in 1997, 52 victims of assaults were studied)
    http://www.pdsdc.org/Resources/SLD/Violent%20Encounters,%20A%20Study%20of%20Felonious%20Assaults%20on%20Our%20Nation%27s%20Law%20Enforcement%20Officers%20by%20DOJ.pdf (published in 2006, 40 incidents involving 43 offenders)

    Overall, approximately 150 criminals were interviewed/studied in the 3 studies. I won't dispute the claim that all 150 did not wear holster, I think it's important to look at the numbers used and the actual duration of the study. By the way, all 3 studies are interesting reads, as well as the March, 2006 bulletin referencing the studies.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I for one need a holster most of the time, few exceptions being, taking out the trash, but when I CCW, I prefer a good holster w/ retention.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,689 Senior Member
    I have been known to slip my SR9c into my coat pocket for a quick run to the store but for normal CCW I use a holster.
    The one exception is a .38spl derrringer I carry in my riding vest pocket as a backup while on the moterbike.
    I do agree with Paul if my CCW card doesn't convince the LEOs I'm ok why would a piece of leather?
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    I just came in from working at the shooting range and encountered 2 individuals who entered the range with pistols (unloaded) in their waistbands! Not ONE of them threatened or shot another shooter at the range!

    I spent a lot of years as an LEO and I will say this, no matter what FBI STATISTICS show: When encountering someone with a gun, no matter WHERE it has been placed, or how, on his person . . . I wouldn't trust his behavior, or him, as I far as I could see him!

    I suppose I could see the point you made, but keep in mind that most of the homeboys on the streets are not the kind most LEOs encounter!

    I've never seen a scum-bag yet with a nice El Paso Saddelry holster caressing his
    Saturday Night Special!
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,684 Senior Member
    gator wrote: »
    I do agree with Paul if my CCW card doesn't convince the LEOs I'm ok why would a piece of leather?

    The point is that is another key in a stressful situation that will make you look on the side of right, and not a homeboy carrying illegally. Take it as you will. Carrying in a holster is safer, tactically better, and one small piece is that dirtbags DON'T carry in a holster. Just another part of why you should carry in one.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • mkk41mkk41 Banned Posts: 1,932 Senior Member
    Two words , pocket pistol!
    "There are no victims , only volunteers!"
  • joseph06joseph06 Member Posts: 133 Member
    Yep--with some guns I'll carry "Mexican style" briefly, but 98% of the time I'm carrying it's with a holster. I even use a pocket holster for my 642.
  • gunwalkergunwalker Member Posts: 470 Member
    A question gents. Some are asserting that a holster helps a LEO differentiate between a permit holder and a criminal In a stressful encounter would a LEO have time to discern an inside the pant holster,or a belt holster worn far back, or a small of the back holster?Just wondering?
    We do not view the world as it is, but as we perceive it to be.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,939 Senior Member
    gunwalker wrote: »
    A question gents. Some are asserting that a holster helps a LEO differentiate between a permit holder and a criminal In a stressful encounter would a LEO have time to discern an inside the pant holster,or a belt holster worn far back, or a small of the back holster?Just wondering?
    Right and the same for pocket holsters.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,145 Senior Member
    Well, I use a holster because it's required by law. But when I was an undercover cop, I carried Mexican style, because cops carry in holsters and I didn't want to be considered a cop. That was before they had small frame autos, which I now carry in my pocket in a pocket holster.

    My favorite holster for speed and when I wasn't UC was (for a 1911) an Askins Avenger, which I still prefer today, although I very seldom carry a full-size pistol.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,731 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Well, I use a holster because it's required by law.
    That a local city/county/state ordinance/law??
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,662 Senior Member
    N320AW wrote: »
    I just came in from working at the shooting range and encountered 2 individuals who entered the range with pistols (unloaded) in their waistbands! Not ONE of them threatened or shot another shooter at the range!

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that since all/most criminals do not use a holster, all/most people who do not use a holster are criminals. That would be a logical fallacy. However the logic that few criminals use holsters, so someone using a holster is unlikely to be a criminal is valid.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that since all/most criminals do not use a holster, all/most people who do not use a holster are criminals. That would be a logical fallacy. However the logic that few criminals use holsters, so someone using a holster is unlikely to be a criminal is valid.

    It is needed to be state, too, that someone who isn't using a holster is not necessarily a criminal.

    I think the actual FBI bulletin/article is worth the read. It has a lot more information on profiling a potential criminals, including how they dress, behave, and act, sometimes in a certain way because they were carrying a gun without a holster. The "none of the criminals in the studies used holsters" was almost a side point to the article, and was rather just a simple observation that the authors did not draw any conclusions from (especially anything remotely suggesting that "no holster" = criminal). We are definitely reading into this "no holsters" too much, way beyond what the article actually observed and concluded.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,145 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    That a local city/county/state ordinance/law??

    State law.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • temmitemmi Member Posts: 230 Member
    I agree and I did not even need the FBI report.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,731 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    That a local city/county/state ordinance/law??
    Gene L wrote: »
    State law.
    Have a reference to it?
    That sounds kind of strange to me :uhm:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Have a reference to it?
    That sounds kind of strange to me :uhm:

    I was wondering the same. I found this regarding Ohio (I think Gene is in CA though).
    For those who are licensed concealed carry permit holders; in most circumstances they may carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle provided it is either:

    1. In a holster on the licensee's person
    2. In a closed case, in plain sight, with a zipper, snap or buckle which must be opened to gain access to the firearm. or
    3. In a glove compartment, center console or locked case.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29#Ohio

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,731 Senior Member
    Gene's in Ga
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Many Police departments have "approved holsters" for uniformed and non uniformed Officers, however UC Officers have a greater latitude on equipment.
    Department policy is not State law, it is that LE regulation.

    I will relate an incident:
    I stopped to aid a motorist stopped on the westbound Brooklyn Queens expwy one afternoon, unmarked unit, non uniform, as I approached the vehicle, it had two occupants both females,
    Two males were approaching from a vehicle parked ahead, 1980's blue chevy Impala NYS plate XXX-000, the first male had a revolver in his waistband, My first impression perhaps it was a NYCPD Officer stopping to render aid, however as soon as they saw Me they bolted and hopped back into their vehicle and took off.

    I called it in on citywide and the pair were stopped by a highway unit a mile downwind, they passed the unit going pretty fast.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,465 Senior Member
    I always use a holster, if for no other reason than to ensure that my draw is as consistent as possible.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • wddodgewddodge Senior Member Posts: 995 Senior Member
    mythaeus wrote: »
    I was wondering the same. I found this regarding Ohio (I think Gene is in CA though).


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29#Ohio

    Al

    That is the original Ohio law that has since been changed as of Sept 30 of this year. As of now, when in a vehical, the firearm can be in a holster on our person or laying on the seat in plain sight. It can also be in the console or glove compt.

    Denny
    Participating in a gun buy back program because you think that criminals have too many guns is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids.... Clint Eastwood
  • GTS197GTS197 New Member Posts: 18 New Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    it shows the cops that you AREN'T a criminal if you are ever being detained.

    I disagree 100% with that statement.
    In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,145 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Have a reference to it?
    That sounds kind of strange to me :uhm:

    It's no longer a law. Changed in the last 3 or so years.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    " Originally Posted by bullsi1911
    it shows the cops that you AREN'T a criminal if you are ever being detained."

    The Police may detain and or handcuff you, while they determine if you are a criminal, as they check the criminal database records.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,731 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    It's no longer a law. Changed in the last 3 or so years.
    Okay, thanks :beer:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • CremonyCremony New Member Posts: 2 New Member


    That adds credence to the citizens of Tombstones claim that the OK Corral Gunfight was a case of murder and police brutality. Billy Clanton and Frank McLaury wore revolvers in holsters on their belts and stood alongside saddled horses with rifles in their scabbards. The Earps carried revolvers in their coat pockets, and in their waistbands.
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,365 Senior Member
    Bullsi

    Dirtbags don't use holsters because in an emergency they can ditch the gun quickly, but it's more difficult to ditch the holster.
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,684 Senior Member
    Exactly. Don't want to look like a dirtbag to the cops? Wear a holster.

    No idea why someone Necrothread'ed this thread...
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Strange........... lots of that nowadays....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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