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Police save more lives than they take. Exponentially.

JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior MemberPosts: 6,557 Senior Member
http://www.rescuehumor.com/2015/01/12/police-save-people-kill/

Every agency.
Every state.
Every county.
Every city.
“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
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Replies

  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    So they kill a few innocent people, what difference at this time does it make?
  • 6EQUJ5 - WOW!6EQUJ5 - WOW! Banned Posts: 482 Member
    What's a few innocent people anyway.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,383 Senior Member
    Holy Smokes, some of you guys just can't find the good in anything. Life must have really dealt you a bad hand for you to be so anti everything and negative. Why dont you come on over to the other sections, and lets talk guns and shooting. Just maybe, you will feel better. Better yet get with a friend or even just yourself and go to the range, send a box or two of practice ammo downrange, maybe it will help you feel better.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Maybe it would be helpful if some of the cyber trolls with a keyboard and an agenda would show up on Memorial Day and actually make their case at handshake distance. I seriously doubt that will ever happen, though. Until then, they're just pathetic pot-stirring losers! Real people on this site aren't afraid to take advantage of a chance to forge personal relationships, but even the chronic whiners who live within easy driving distance don't have the man (or woman-hood) to risk a face to face meeting.
    Jerry
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,194 Senior Member
    I don't really have a dog in this fight - I can see both sides. I have enormous respect for the police - OTOH, in two cases where the police *may* have been wrong (one almost certainly), they close ranks quickly and you can't get anywhere. This was in regards to a pair of traffic accidents that were apparently police caused that I knew the people involved. In the "almost certain" case, one of the civilians ended up having to get a knee replacement.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    My biggest gripe about the screw-ups by the PDs is from working in an industry that had a few MAJOR screw-ups, changed their attitude to a 'zero defect' attitude, and have been so ever since. Slowing down and putting procedures in place that prevent mistakes is doable. The airlines did it, the nuclear industry did it, and the military does it in their flight procedures. WRITTEN STEP BY STEP procedures prevent most accidents, and the accidents that DO happen are mostly from a FAILURE TO FOLLOW THE WRITTEN PROCEDURE. When you are putting your signature and initials on a step by step procedure, and OWN ALL MISTAKES, it tends to make you a helluva lot more careful about the job at hand. And it ALSO pinpoints the person that dropped the ball and who needs to be taken to the woodshed for that mistake.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    The LEO population is kinda like general population ... you have a few idiots, a few corrupt, a few mean a-holes, a few so on and so on. Each time one of the "few" pulls something the media of others just start on LEOs. What about the LEO this past winter that jumped in a river in western NC to pull a mother and child out of a car the the mother ran off a bridge into? What about the LEOs killed in the line of duty in Texas and Louisiana this past year? What about those who just go thru their day and might not save a life in such grand fashion but keep our communities from going to the thugs? Sure we have bad incidents like Noor, the wrong address warrant and quite a few others but just how much good is done by the LEOs who have to hear how bad LEOS are. Just like we scream that one idiot gun owner does not represent all of us and guns do way more good than bad but the media, gun grabbers and liberal politicians only point at the bad things.

    If there were a bad out break of Blue Flu for say a week how do you think things would go? Places like Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta and even the bad sections of many many regular towns would likely have people screaming for the LEOs to help. I am not defending the latest idiot episodes like the Noor thing or Keystone Cops serving a warrant but there are waaaaaay more LEOs who try to make a difference and give a lot than the ones who give them a bad name. I don't want to have LEOs coming to my door or pulling me over which might happen for some reason I don't like but I sure would miss them when something goes wrong and we really need them.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    My biggest gripe about the screw-ups by the PDs is from working in an industry that had a few MAJOR screw-ups, changed their attitude to a 'zero defect' attitude, and have been so ever since. Slowing down and putting procedures in place that prevent mistakes is doable. The airlines did it, the nuclear industry did it, and the military does it in their flight procedures. WRITTEN STEP BY STEP procedures prevent most accidents, and the accidents that DO happen are mostly from a FAILURE TO FOLLOW THE WRITTEN PROCEDURE. When you are putting your signature and initials on a step by step procedure, and OWN ALL MISTAKES, it tends to make you a helluva lot more careful about the job at hand. And it ALSO pinpoints the person that dropped the ball and who needs to be taken to the woodshed for that mistake.

    Awesome post Mike. :agree:
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,194 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    The LEO population is kinda like general population ... you have a few idiots, a few corrupt, a few mean a-holes, a few so on and so on. Each time one of the "few" pulls something the media of others just start on LEOs. What about the LEO this past winter that jumped in a river in western NC to pull a mother and child out of a car the the mother ran off a bridge into? What about the LEOs killed in the line of duty in Texas and Louisiana this past year? What about those who just go thru their day and might not save a life in such grand fashion but keep our communities from going to the thugs? Sure we have bad incidents like Noor, the wrong address warrant and quite a few others but just how much good is done by the LEOs who have to hear how bad LEOS are. Just like we scream that one idiot gun owner does not represent all of us and guns do way more good than bad but the media, gun grabbers and liberal politicians only point at the bad things.

    If there were a bad out break of Blue Flu for say a week how do you think things would go? Places like Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta and even the bad sections of many many regular towns would likely have people screaming for the LEOs to help. I am not defending the latest idiot episodes like the Noor thing or Keystone Cops serving a warrant but there are waaaaaay more LEOs who try to make a difference and give a lot than the ones who give them a bad name. I don't want to have LEOs coming to my door or pulling me over which might happen for some reason I don't like but I sure would miss them when something goes wrong and we really need them.

    This is all very true - but I still don't like how they close ranks and protect "their own", even when they're guilty as Hell.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    I'm just not sure where these perfect paragons of virtue come from.
  • RugerFanRugerFan Senior Member Posts: 2,438 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    The LEO population is kinda like general population ... you have a few idiots, a few corrupt, a few mean a-holes, a few so on and so on. Each time one of the "few" pulls something the media of others just start on LEOs. What about the LEO this past winter that jumped in a river in western NC to pull a mother and child out of a car the the mother ran off a bridge into? What about the LEOs killed in the line of duty in Texas and Louisiana this past year? What about those who just go thru their day and might not save a life in such grand fashion but keep our communities from going to the thugs? Sure we have bad incidents like Noor, the wrong address warrant and quite a few others but just how much good is done by the LEOs who have to hear how bad LEOS are. Just like we scream that one idiot gun owner does not represent all of us and guns do way more good than bad but the media, gun grabbers and liberal politicians only point at the bad things.

    If there were a bad out break of Blue Flu for say a week how do you think things would go? Places like Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta and even the bad sections of many many regular towns would likely have people screaming for the LEOs to help. I am not defending the latest idiot episodes like the Noor thing or Keystone Cops serving a warrant but there are waaaaaay more LEOs who try to make a difference and give a lot than the ones who give them a bad name. I don't want to have LEOs coming to my door or pulling me over which might happen for some reason I don't like but I sure would miss them when something goes wrong and we really need them.

    "The squeaky wheel gets the grease"
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    I don't think anyone is suggesting all cops are bad or most cops are bad or that cops on net do more harm than good. We are however tired of the apologists who trot out Everytime a major screw up happens and try to excuse it. There are plenty of things that can/could be done to limit or minimize major mistakes like we're talking about and I don't think talking about them should be controversial. Most cops are good, but all cops are human, which means highly imperfect. The problem is that unlike most people who's mistakes usually cause minimal harm to to others, their mistakes often end up with someone innocent assuming room temperature.

    WOW is suggesting exactly that.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,383 Senior Member
    I don't think anyone is suggesting all cops are bad or most cops are bad or that cops on net do more harm than good. We are however tired of the apologists who trot out Everytime a major screw up happens and try to excuse it. There are plenty of things that can/could be done to limit or minimize major mistakes like we're talking about and I don't think talking about them should be controversial. Most cops are good, but all cops are human, which means highly imperfect. The problem is that unlike most people who's mistakes usually cause minimal harm to to others, their mistakes often end up with someone innocent assuming room temperature.

    Alpha, you are really good with graphs and such. How about showing one that shows how many warrants are issued in a say a year, and how many turn out like the one in the OP.

    I stand by the thought that the amount of mistakes/f-ups is very small to the amount of ones that turn out like this one. I bet a graph would show a very small amount
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • 6EQUJ5 - WOW!6EQUJ5 - WOW! Banned Posts: 482 Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    WOW is suggesting exactly that.

    Nonsense.
  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Alpha, you are really good with graphs and such. How about showing one that shows how many warrants are issued in a say a year, and how many turn out like the one in the OP.

    I stand by the thought that the amount of mistakes/f-ups is very small to the amount of ones that turn out like this one. I bet a graph would show a very small amount

    So you are ok with a "small number of mistakes?"
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,383 Senior Member
    john9001 wrote: »
    So you are ok with a "small number of mistakes?"

    Like it? absolutely not. However, when humans are part of the equation mistakes happen. That is reality. Google says there is aprox. 765K officers in America, plus another 44K part timers. Lets make the math easy and say 800K. If .5% made one mistake a year how many mistakes would that be?
    That would be 4000 mistakes would it not? Just one is too many, but reality is mistakes happen
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    Nonsense.

    Prove it. You are a bigot against law enforcement.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    john9001 wrote: »
    So you are ok with a "small number of mistakes?"

    You have to be. The least number of mistakes possible is the best you can strive for as humans. No one is infallible.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • 6EQUJ5 - WOW!6EQUJ5 - WOW! Banned Posts: 482 Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Prove it. You are a bigot against law enforcement.

    No, not a bigot, just an American citizen who is very critical of the countless examples of police brutality and constitutional rights violations we are seeing at the hands of many LEOs these days.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    No, not a bigot, just an American citizen who is very critical of the countless examples of police brutality and constitutional rights violations we are seeing at the hands of many LEOs these days.

    Not countless. Countable. The lives cops save are countless.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,865 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Maybe there has been no suggestion that all cops are bad as such. But there have been PLENTY of suggestions that when there is a bad cop incident the entire LE community will just automatically collude to cover it up and dismiss it as a generalization. THAT is a bunch of hogwash coming from a few here and the ONE issue that makes this a controversial topic on this forum. And I for one, am sick of it.

    Me too
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,194 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Maybe there has been no suggestion that all cops are bad as such. But there have been PLENTY of suggestions that when there is a bad cop incident the entire LE community will just automatically collude to cover it up and dismiss it as a generalization. THAT is a bunch of hogwash coming from a few here and the ONE issue that makes this a controversial topic on this forum. And I for one, am sick of it.

    I've seen enough of it personally to make me wary. They close ranks very quickly from the two examples I have personal knowledge of. Screwups happen, we all get that. Coverups and "protect our own" are NOT acceptable. They weren't acceptable in either of the cases I'm talking about, and they're not acceptable anywhere else. Now THAT is what I'm sick of - the closing of ranks and protectionism. It doesn't happen much, because I don't think cops as a whole screw up very often, but when they do, they should be just as accountable as I would be. In these cases I'm talking about, they weren't.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • 6EQUJ5 - WOW!6EQUJ5 - WOW! Banned Posts: 482 Member
    zorba wrote: »
    I've seen enough of it personally to make me wary. They close ranks very quickly from the two examples I have personal knowledge of. Screwups happen, we all get that. Coverups and "protect our own" are NOT acceptable. They weren't acceptable in either of the cases I'm talking about, and they're not acceptable anywhere else. Now THAT is what I'm sick of - the closing of ranks and protectionism. It doesn't happen much, because I don't think cops as a whole screw up very often, but when they do, they should be just as accountable as I would be. In these cases I'm talking about, they weren't.

    Well said. Agree.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,806 Senior Member
    Maybe we need a fleet of Robocops....they NEVER make mistakes.
    :yesno:
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 8,187 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Maybe there has been no suggestion that all cops are bad as such. But there have been PLENTY of suggestions that when there is a bad cop incident the entire LE community will just automatically collude to cover it up and dismiss it as a generalization. THAT is a bunch of hogwash coming from a few here and the ONE issue that makes this a controversial topic on this forum. And I for one, am sick of it.

    :agree:

    ( and I am not agreeing cos I spent 20yrs in uniform)
    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,194 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I agree with the accountability. Unfortunately around here the severe over use of clearly exaggerated terms like "plenty", "countless", "many" and "every time" have obscured any kind of fairness or perspective in the discussions that might be had and only make folks run for their respective corners and dig in, and then the stupid personal attacks start to happen. It's just childish and it diminishes us all.

    Dear God, it's even to the point that something positive about Law Enforcement can't be posted here before the usual bunch start craping all over it with their inane comments. So to be perfectly honest, my patience with this subject is officially worn thin...

    I figure that, about 99% of the time, when some scumbag gets shot by a cop, he had it coming. Blew several clear chances to "don't" and paid the price. And we certainly have lots of cases of some -bag getting shot and the cop being strung up by the lynch mob of public option when its obvious that we're all better off with said -bag being removed from society.

    Hell, that might even be the case with the story that started this particular round of this debate. I wasn't there, and I distrust media reports - so I just don't know...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Mike, you can certainly fine tune machines to a near 0% failure point as is the case with nuclear power plants. BUT, you can NOT design huge groups of humans, faced with potentially infinite scenarios of action, in the hundreds of thousands, to perform to 100% perfection. I'm pretty sure our armed forces, as good as they are, and as proud as I am of them, have proven this countless times over our history...

    I think you may misunderstand what I was saying. So I'll come at it from a different direction and maybe make it clearer.

    Humans, by their nature, are prone to make mistakes. Inattention to detail, arrogance, the "I've done this a thousand times before" attitude, and more all set up the conditions for failure. With step by step procedures with sign-offs at each step, one is required to STOP AND THINK. Verification of the step is two part. So, for cops, it would be 1. read the address on the warrant, and 2. verify the address one is at, and if they're smart, then they will do that twice. Paranoia, or a healthy dose of OCD, is a good motivator in making one RTFI. If steps 1 and 2 cannot be verified for whatever reason, then that is a really good reason to back off and get more information before proceeding.

    Encountering unexpected conditions is always a good place to pause and reassess the situation. Blindly forging forward generally has a poor outcome. That goes for people in general, as well as cops and the military.

    100% perfection should be a goal, knowing that there WILL be mistakes. But doing EVERYTHING WITHIN ONE'S POWER to minimize mistakes and improve the odds of NOT making a mistake should always be the goal, too. When 'business as usual' isn't cutting it, it might be time to look at ways to improve the positive.

    And as to another suggestion that would REALLY make a difference, numbers on house and mailbox is a start. Lawmakers are always passing stupid stuff, so how about making that a law that actually serves a purpose, and just not for cops. EMS and firemen could also benefit. Just drive around any town or city and see how many buildings and houses lack numbers prominently displayed. Sounds worthwhile to me, but that's just my opinion.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    ...

    And as to another suggestion that would REALLY make a difference, numbers on house and mailbox is a start. Lawmakers are always passing stupid stuff, so how about making that a law that actually serves a purpose, and just not for cops. EMS and firemen could also benefit. Just drive around any town or city and see how many buildings and houses lack numbers prominently displayed. Sounds worthwhile to me, but that's just my opinion.
    That's already the case in several Florida cities. Numbers on the house have to be lit at night or reflective.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • 6EQUJ5 - WOW!6EQUJ5 - WOW! Banned Posts: 482 Member
    That's already the case in several Florida cities. Numbers on the house have to be lit at night or reflective.

    Hahahahaha!! Good lord.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    That's already the case in several Florida cities. Numbers on the house have to be lit at night or reflective.

    Makes sense. Why wouldn't anyone want their house easily identified? Mail, UPS, FED-EX deliveries, pizza and other deliveries are easier if the person delivering has some idea they are at the right place. My outside light next to the door lights up the numbers on my house. Living out in the country, the UPS and FED-EX drivers all appreciate that when they deliver in the daytime. They know they are at the right place.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
This discussion has been closed.
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