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So what should we do?

CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior MemberPosts: 13,081 Senior Member
I am not trying to be argumentative or disrespectful to either side of the conversation, but the vitriol on the forum is getting old fast.

If an LEO, or group thereof, come to the wrong address to issue a warrant, and they come to the wrong address, what is it that law enforcement would like us homeowners to do? Please be specific since I most likely will be armed and my dog may be barking.
I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
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Replies

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    I am not trying to be argumentative or disrespectful to either side of the conversation, but the vitriol on the forum is getting old fast.

    If an LEO, or group thereof, come to the wrong address to issue a warrant, and they come to the wrong address, what is it that law enforcement would like us homeowners to do? Please be specific since I most likely will be armed and my dog may be barking.

    Tell the dog to **** and stay in bed and pull the covers over your head. Oh yeah stash your gun where they won't see it.

    Hell I don't know, sounds like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. To me nobody here was there and nobody here knows what really happened. We all know better than to make bold comments to fellow forum members in anger without knowing the real facts. All we know is what the news said. And they're never 100% on the first statements. That's why I kept my mouth shut. At this point I don't know whether it was the cops fault or the victims. My damned Crystal Ball has this habit of clouding up at inopportune times and the damned defroster sucks.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Calling 911 if available would be good.
    "Show me a bage?"
    A home invasion in my particular neighborhood would be destined for failure if conducted at high volume. We residents here can eachother sneeze.

    In all honesty IMO a home invasion or wrong address no knock raid are about as likely as a lightning strike.

    Could be, reason versus emotion might help here.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,555 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    I am not trying to be argumentative or disrespectful to either side of the conversation, but the vitriol on the forum is getting old fast.

    If an LEO, or group thereof, come to the wrong address to issue a warrant, and they come to the wrong address, what is it that law enforcement would like us homeowners to do? Please be specific since I most likely will be armed and my dog may be barking.
    I think this is a really good post and question.

    I don't think there will be time for a phone call, actually. A lot of these instances, from what I've read, begin with "Police, open up" and the door coming down quickly. Usually late at night, I'd imagine so folks are sleepy and slower to react, and more likely to be there? That's a supposition on my part. My point is, when they occur it doesn't seem like there's time for an extended chat and time to proof credentials.

    But, how do you differentiate between a mistaken warrant being served and an armed home invasion? Both have widely different suites of reaction.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    I don't think there will be time for a phone call, actually. A lot of these instances, from what I've read, begin with "Police, open up" and the door coming down quickly. Usually late at night, I'd imagine so folks are sleepy and slower to react, and more likely to be there? That's a supposition on my part. My point is, when they occur it doesn't seem like there's time for an extended chat and time to proof credentials.

    But, how do you differentiate between a mistaken warrant being served and an armed home invasion? Both have widely different suites of reaction.


    Don't forget that if you try to defend yourself and your family and injure an officer, you'll either die in a hail of gunfire or get charged and prosecuted with assaulting an officer at the very least.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,555 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    Don't forget that if you try to defend yourself and your family and injure an officer, you'll either die in a hail of gunfire or get charged and prosecuted with assaulting an officer at the very least.
    That's why I asked about differentiating between armed home invasion and warrant being served, and there being a suite of reactions. And yes, folks doing armed home invasions ARE posing as police officers.

    http://wsvn.com/news/local/armed-subjects-pose-as-cops-in-sw-miami-dade-home-invasion/

    http://khon2.com/2017/06/07/relatives-off-duty-officer-thwart-home-invasion-by-suspects-posing-as-police-officers/

    https://www.justice.gov/usao-nj/pr/paterson-new-jersey-man-charged-armed-home-invasion-while-posing-law-enforcement-officer
    Overkill is underrated.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,861 Senior Member
    This is hopefully going to be answered soon.

    It is of interest for me not only because of the danger of reacting wrongly, but, I have a problem with address I guess because not
    even the postman or the package delivery drivers can get it right often enough.

    Seems easy to me; but, it is not
    they cannot seem to tell the difference 233 Baker ST and 223 Baker St and 223 Alpha St.
    [The 2 streets connect at a T intersection and names were changed for this example]
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    This is hopefully going to be answered soon.

    It is of interest for me not only because of the danger of reacting wrongly, but, I have a problem with address I guess because not
    even the postman or the package delivery drivers can get it right often enough.

    Seems easy to me; but, it is not
    they cannot seem to tell the difference 233 Baker ST and 223 Baker St and 223 Alpha St.
    [The 2 streets connect at a T intersection and names were changed for this example]

    This could be a problem for me, as well. My home delivery from all of the package carriers is erratic, even with many of them using GPS. My driveway serves two houses, with mine being at the back, about 600 feet from the highway. The land is heavily wooded, and my house cannot be seen until you reach the first house. Some deliver packages to my neighbors, some to the mailbox, some just get thrown in the ditch. Some GPS is accurate enough to find the right driveway, but there are still two choices.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,555 Senior Member
    At our office we've had mulitiple deliveries delayed because the GPS took folks into the next county.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    It isn't because GPS is not good. They could have sub-meter accuracy for not a lot of money. The problem is that the maps are not accurate enough, or the operator is not properly trained. If everybody knew their latitude and longitude, and the operator knew how to input it into his machine, it would work every time, barring interference.

    If all of the carriers had good GPS that they could update while sitting in your driveway, and then upload it into a central database, they would have half the homes in the US mapped in 5 years.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,861 Senior Member
    First time we went to a shoot, cpj's GPS took him to a cornfield
    problem is, it let him out of the field!!!! :popcorn:
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    First time we went to a shoot, cpj's GPS took him to a cornfield
    problem is, it let him out of the field!!!! :popcorn:

    I borrowed a really basic Garmin unit from a friend when I went to my first shoot and it took me straight to Jerry's driveway.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    That's why I asked about differentiating between armed home invasion and warrant being served, and there being a suite of reactions.


    I think that some of that has to do with where you live also. Here where we live, crime is very low so consequently the LEO's aren't very jumpy and almost too complacent. Just 40 miles down the road in Pensacola, crime is much higher and there are shootings almost daily and the LEO's are wound up a bit tighter because they are working in a more hazardous environment. The last three officers that were killed in the line of duty in our county died because of complacency and bad decisions rather that some premeditated plan to attack them.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    I kinda did stuff at my house to try and remove some wild cards. My mailbox has the house number clearly posted. I also have the house number posted to be seen as you come up the steps. Trying to make sure they can see the house number I would hope keeps them from knocking on the wrong door unless the wrong house number is given on paperwork due to a clerical error not the LEOs error. I now have cameras on the doors and a motion lighting that allow me to see fairly well who/what is there. My front door has a heavier decorative storm door that has a lock not just a latch. The way my foyer is setup I don't stand in front of the door or window if I do go to the door. While my Labs don't really bark, if they even get up, I can shut them in the dining room off the foyer easy.

    As to a firearm, I have a shelf in the foyer where I can place a pistol real quick and easy if need be and by the same token retrieve it. Also my wife and kid know if someone comes to the front door and I am not comfortable they go to their designated places, take cover and do not come out until I use their full given names. I hope if anything ever does happen I will not rush or act hastily and through calmness keep things from going bad.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,373 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    I kinda did stuff at my house to try and remove some wild cards. My mailbox has the house number clearly posted. I also have the house number posted to be seen as you come up the steps. Trying to make sure they can see the house number I would hope keeps them from knocking on the wrong door unless the wrong house number is given on paperwork due to a clerical error not the LEOs error. I now have cameras on the doors and a motion lighting that allow me to see fairly well who/what is there. My front door has a heavier decorative storm door that has a lock not just a latch. The way my foyer is setup I don't stand in front of the door or window if I do go to the door. While my Labs don't really bark, if they even get up, I can shut them in the dining room off the foyer easy.

    As to a firearm, I have a shelf in the foyer where I can place a pistol real quick and easy if need be and by the same token retrieve it. Also my wife and kid know if someone comes to the front door and I am not comfortable they go to their designated places, take cover and do not come out until I use their full given names. I hope if anything ever does happen I will not rush or act hastily and through calmness keep things from going bad.

    Seems like you have everything within your power covered.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Seems like you have everything within your power covered.

    Yep, within my thoughts but I that don't mean that Murphy can still show up. If there was a knock at 11:30 pm on a Sunday night my stomach still knots up and I'd still break out in a cold sweat until I knew things were clear. You can't fix all stupidity in the world ... ask my wife she gave up on trying to fix me years ago.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    I borrowed a really basic Garmin unit from a friend when I went to my first shoot and it took me straight to Jerry's driveway.
    I have used Google Maps 5 times. It directed me to dead ends 3 times.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    I'm a lot more concerned about encountering a paranoid, trigger happy rookie on a traffic stop than experiencing a home invasion by the Gestapo. Of course, the Sheriff's department in both counties my property covers is aware that I'm well-armed because they get invited to the SE Shoot every year and unless something way out of the norm happens I'm pretty sure the deputies I know wouldn't want to risk a no-knock suicide mission.

    Since I travel to some very hazardous areas like Memphis, Birmingham, Atlanta, Nashville, St. Louis, etc. on a regular basis, I'm a lot more likely to encounter a "shoot first so I don't have to ask questions" attitude out on the road than something going wrong on the home front.
    Jerry
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Jerry, your very correct. My locals know me but when I have to go thru a couple of cities around me I do kinda make sure my paperwork is handy just in case I get pulled. A few years back I started taking my wallet out of my pocket and placing it on my vehicle console. I also keep my insurance and registration cards in a slot on the console. If needed I have all paperwork in my hands with no reaching, shifting or such before the LEO even gets out of his vehicle. The couple times I have been pulled, NC is a a must declare state for CHPs, I have my DL w/ my CHP on top out the window for an approaching LEO see even though he knows from running my plate a CHP holder is the owner of the vehicle and after that I follow his lead. I hate to make it a sound like LEOs are prejudice but the type of vehicle I drive, me being a clean cut middle aged white male and appearing to cooperate from the start seems to give them a little peace of mind I'm not going to present any great threat. Again thinking ahead I hope gives me a better chance to not cause a LEO to be on edge if I am pulled.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Stisticaly speaking this is the equivalent to seeking an answer to what should you do if you are struck by lightning.

    Just a thought...

    And yet people get struck by lightning all the time. Roughly two per day in the US with ~50 fatalities.

    Knowing this to be true, I don't golf or fish during storms. I stay away from trees during storms. In other words, I reduce my risk of getting struck as best I can.

    There is no risk mitigation for wrong address warrants. My absolute lack of criminal activity makes no difference.
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 13,081 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Stisticaly speaking this is the equivalent to seeking an answer to what should you do if you are struck by lightning.

    Just a thought...

    And yet, this has been debated over and over on the forum until folks are angry and banned. The LEO's on the forum have their point of view, I don't necessarily disagree with their views, in theory, but when the theory ends up with someone dead over a wrong address, what would improve the situation for the LEO at the wrong address and the home owner answering his door or dealing with a no-knock, that is the question, I am attempting to avoid getting hit by lightning.

    I figure the LEO's on the forum are not going to sign up for another debate based a response from them, but I figure it would be fair to them to ask.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,063 Senior Member
    Never threaten a cop with serious bodily harm or deadly force, even if he's wrong. A cop has the right to self defense, even if he's at the wrong house. Siccing a dog or drawing a gun on a cop even if he's at the wrong house is going from a simple mistake to a deadly force incident in an instant.

    Why would any reasonable person do such a thing? If there is the wrong address on the warrant and the cops search, you've got grounds for a lawsuit. If he finds illegal substances during the illegal search, this evidence can't be used. Fruits of the poisoned tree.

    The thing to do IMO is to take the warrant, which must be given to you initially, read the address to make sure it's the proper address. If not, inform the officer he's at the wrong house. If he insists, refer to Paragraph two.

    The thing NOT to do is to try to legislate at the front door.

    I would add IMO to never threaten ANYONE with serious bodily harm or deadly force even if you're right. Nothing good can come of this.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 13,081 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Never threaten a cop with serious bodily harm or deadly force, even if he's wrong. A cop has the right to self defense, even if he's at the wrong house. Siccing a dog or drawing a gun on a cop even if he's at the wrong house is going from a simple mistake to a deadly force incident in an instant.

    Why would any reasonable person do such a thing? If there is the wrong address on the warrant and the cops search, you've got grounds for a lawsuit. If he finds illegal substances during the illegal search, this evidence can't be used. Fruits of the poisoned tree.

    The thing to do IMO is to take the warrant, which must be given to you initially, read the address to make sure it's the proper address. If not, inform the officer he's at the wrong house. If he insists, refer to Paragraph two.

    The thing NOT to do is to try to legislate at the front door.

    I would add IMO to never threaten ANYONE with serious bodily harm or deadly force even if you're right. Nothing good can come of this.

    What if it is a no knock? What if the officers are not in a regular uniform and they are not obviously LEO's? Will a LEO in this situation wait patiently at the door if I wish to confirm with 911 or the local PD dispatch by phone?
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,180 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    What if it is a no knock? What if the officers are not in a regular uniform and they are not obviously LEO's? Will a LEO in this situation wait patiently at the door if I wish to confirm with 911 or the local PD dispatch by phone?

    This is the crux of the matter. As far as I'm concerned, no knock warrants are quasi-illegal - or should be. If "they" insist on using SA or SS tactics, what do "they" expect? I don't think anyone here wants to shoot a legitimate police officer, but same generally don't kick down doors at 0200. *shrug* I don't know...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,373 Senior Member
    I have been thinking about this. I know my address is marked in two places on the house and we take care of the dog if someone comes to the door. Yes current dog is tiny, but in the past Spirit a beautiful Doberman was very protective. At night I often have a handgun on myself, in my hand, or very nearby. If the Police were to come to my door for any reason and told me a command like: show me your hands, drop the gun, on the ground anything, I would comply.

    Not all, but many of LEO encounters that go bad seem to have a person or group not following the LEO's orders. When the Police say drop the gun, show me your hands, whatever, just do it. If they are wrong you can argue later, call your attorney and whatever. Should you have to? NO, is it right? NO, but, follow instructions, don't argue, make sure you are alive to sue the ing crap out of them tomorrow if they are wrong
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,063 Senior Member
    You're loading me down with what ifs. A No-Knock Warrant is a very risky situation and require reasons to ID the Officers as Officers. We never served them, because in GA, you have the right to shoot someone who illegally enters your house by force.

    Almost (or actually all) warrants I served were in plain clothes. I would knock and when the occupant came to the door announce why I was there. No problems. There is a very good chance 911 won't know if an UC officer is at the door and announce beforehand he's at 123 Fake Street over the air. So your question is basically not what happens in the real world.

    As I said before, don't legislate the warrant at the front door. No robber is going to wait while you call 911 to see if the cops are real, and no cop is either; they're required to knock and announce, not wait around for your lawyer to show up.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,063 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    This is the crux of the matter. As far as I'm concerned, no knock warrants are quasi-illegal - or should be. If "they" insist on using SA or SS tactics, what do "they" expect? I don't think anyone here wants to shoot a legitimate police officer, but same generally don't kick down doors at 0200. *shrug* I don't know...

    See my post above about No-Knocks. HOWEVER, if you as a cop perform a raid or search warrant on an armed gang like MS 13, you'd better do it by surprise and show great readiness for violence if necessary. In most jurisdictions, search warrants can't be served after a certain hour; that varies.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Watch one episode of "Cops" to see how those "reasonable" responses to a raid work out- - - - -once the flash-bangs are thrown, the dog gets shot, and everybody in the place gets bounced off a few walls in the process of being handcuffed- - - - -just exactly when is it time to say "May I please read that warrant you're waving around to see if I really want you in my house!"
    :uhm:
    Jerry
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    You must really poop your pants when you take a drive on the interstate...

    No, I mitigate risk while driving.
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,035 Senior Member
    Some folks on here need to watch PD-LIVE tonight. It's on for 2 hours on Friday and Saturday nights. It's a hoot.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 13,081 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    You're loading me down with what ifs. A No-Knock Warrant is a very risky situation and require reasons to ID the Officers as Officers. We never served them, because in GA, you have the right to shoot someone who illegally enters your house by force.

    Almost (or actually all) warrants I served were in plain clothes. I would knock and when the occupant came to the door announce why I was there. No problems. There is a very good chance 911 won't know if an UC officer is at the door and announce beforehand he's at 123 Fake Street over the air. So your question is basically not what happens in the real world.

    As I said before, don't legislate the warrant at the front door. No robber is going to wait while you call 911 to see if the cops are real, and no cop is either; they're required to knock and announce, not wait around for your lawyer to show up.

    Does a warrant legally require me to open my door without verifying its authenticity? That helps with you explanation of how you issued a warrant, thanks.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
This discussion has been closed.
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