Pepper ball, meet antifa groin.

Jack Burton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXEaMafqheQ

:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao: :rotflmao:

CaliFFL

Looks like battery to me. If he'd been shot while approaching the canister, fine. Shooting him after returning to his position? Clear intent to cause injury....

NCFUBAR

I'm tellin' you Bob if one of these damn idiots kicks my tear gas canister again I'm gonna fix him ... oh it on now! Let's see you kick now sucker!

ETA: on a serious note, while it is funny LEOs are instructed NOT to target the head/neck area or groin when using non-lethals but I guess "the sights were a little off"
:devil:

Fisheadgib

CaliFFL wrote: »

Looks like battery to me. If he'd been shot while approaching the canister, fine..

Yeah, it's battery and nothing will happen about it, but it's still funny as hell! Last week the Boston police actually asked the protestors to please not throw bottles of urine at them but several did anyway, but then that was Boston.

Zee

NCFUBAR wrote: »

ETA: on a serious note, while it is funny LEOs are instructed NOT to target the head/neck area or groin when using non-lethals but I guess "the sights were a little off"
:devil:

The impact was actually in the abdomen, above the pant line, at the bottom of the shirt, just below the navel. When slowed down and stopped, you can see the point of impact and the powder jettison downwards.



Might as well argue with the facts.

bullsi1911

Zee wrote: »

Might as well argue with the facts.

Welcome! This is the internet... you must be new here.

Jayhawker

Fisheadgib wrote: »

Yeah, it's battery and nothing will happen about it, but it's still funny as hell! Last week the Boston police actually asked the protestors to please not throw bottles of urine at them but several did anyway, but then that was Boston.

I wonder how long it takes to collect enough pee for a demonstration?

Zee

Fisheadgib wrote: »

Yeah, it's battery and nothing will happen about it.......

Some light reading if you choose.

https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/RichardGarrity/use-of-force-guidelines-pepperball-gun-urban-riot-richard-garrity

NCFUBAR

Zee wrote: »

The impact was actually in the abdomen, above the pant line, at the bottom of the shirt, just below the navel. When slowed down and stopped, you can see the point of impact and the powder jettison downwards.

Might as well argue with the facts.

Excellent eye, within the strike zone. From the Simunition days some real good places in the strike zones would be the hands, especially the fingers, along with the knee caps and ankles. For some reason those places will bring more than a tear to your eyes and I'd guess those hard pepper poppers wouldn't feel to good there either.

bisley

Zee wrote: »

Some light reading if you choose.

https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/RichardGarrity/use-of-force-guidelines-pepperball-gun-urban-riot-richard-garrity

Light reading? I need a lawyer!

As near as I can make out, it may or may not be OK to use it, whenever out of the jurisdiction of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

Jay

The purpose of the gas was to disperse the crowd. Target decides to interrupt that plan. Target was identified as an agitator in the crowd and dealt with accordingly. Target left. Goal accomplished and nobody was seriously injured. It was not battery. It was goal accomplished.

Maybe officer did not have a clear view of the target until he moved back? Either way, the target was dealt with and removed from the situation.

Just an FYI, the round that killed Victoria Snelgrove came from an FN303. A bit more punch to it than a many of the pepperball platforms have. The lawsuit on that one wasn't a minor one. Training on the less lethal launchers like this has improved greatly since then. You don't fire indiscriminately into crowds or unclear targets. Also, the target in that video was moving, until the moment he was hit in the lower abdomen. Could it be that that moment was the first opportunity to place a round on the target, thereby stopping his undesired actions?

Fisheadgib

Zee wrote: »

Some light reading if you choose.

https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/RichardGarrity/use-of-force-guidelines-pepperball-gun-urban-riot-richard-garrity

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the guy being hit with the pepperball but it would have been more defensible to the public eye if it happened before he backed up.

Jay

After watching the video again, it's actually fairly clear how it played out, based on what we can see in the short video. The target approached the gas canister and kicked it back toward the police. That is a clear indication that he is not a peaceful protestor. The other indication; he's wearing a gas mask. If you go to a demonstration prepared with a gas mask, and you try to return gas canisters back to the police, you went prepared to cause problems. Those are the type of people who will be targeted and removed from the crowd to restore order. That is not battery.

The target was moving around, was sideways or facing away from the direction of where the shot came from and not presenting a clear shot while there were people behind him. As soon as the target stopped enough, turned to face toward the area the pepper ball came from, AND the guy pulling the wagon behind him cleared, the shot hit and was placed within a good target area. It stopped that guy's actions and got him out of there. At least for a while.

tennmike

It didn't hit him in the 'twig and berries' but it DID hit in a VERY sensitive area of the groin. Since he had on a gas mask I'd suspect he was there to stir the pot. As hard as I can try, I don't feel sorry for him at all. Instead of dispersing as ordered he wanted to make a statement. I bet he made a statement when that pepper round hit close to his giblets.

CaliFFL

Jay wrote: »

After watching the video again, it's actually fairly clear how it played out, based on what we can see in the short video. The target approached the gas canister and kicked it back toward the police. That is a clear indication that he is not a peaceful protestor. The other indication; he's wearing a gas mask. If you go to a demonstration prepared with a gas mask, and you try to return gas canisters back to the police, you went prepared to cause problems. Those are the type of people who will be targeted and removed from the crowd to restore order. That is not battery.

The target was moving around, was sideways or facing away from the direction of where the shot came from and not presenting a clear shot while there were people behind him. As soon as the target stopped enough, turned to face toward the area the pepper ball came from, AND the guy pulling the wagon behind him cleared, the shot hit and was placed within a good target area. It stopped that guy's actions and got him out of there. At least for a while.

According to the link provided by Zee:

18. Acceptable uses of a less lethal force: To incapacitate a combative or physically resistive person whose conduct rises at least to the level of Active Aggression. The purpose is to neutralize the person to the point they can be safely controlled and taken into custody.
19. Acceptable uses of a less lethal force: This use of force option becomes necessary when other force options would be inappropriate or ineffective under the circumstances and it is reasonable and necessary in order to attempt to avoid having to use deadly force.
20. Acceptable uses of a less lethal force: Active Aggression is defined as a threat or overt act of an assault, coupled with the present ability to carry out the threat or assault, which reasonably indicates that an assault or injury to any person is imminent.
21. Acceptable uses of a less lethal force: To incapacitate a suicidal person who cannot be safely controlled with other force options.

There needs to be some kind of imminent threat to justify less than lethal force.

john9001

A riot is a imminent threat. They forgot to teach their little snowflakes that in Poly Si class.

It's all fun and games until somebody gets hurt.

Jay

So; A riot. A rioter. Wearing a gas mask and trying to send a gas canister back at the police. Preventing the police from dispersing a riot. Not a imminent threat. Gocha.

The quote from the link provided by Zee answers the question perfectly. See number 20. If the guy in that video wasn't displaying active aggression and had just displayed an overt act of assault, I'm not sure anything I can provide will be helpful for you. But I knew that would be the case anyway.

Jay

But while we're picking out certain portions of the information provided, how 'bout we look a little further than that little piece of information.

Situations when it's use is likely to prevent an officer or third party from getting injured.

When ordered by the field force commander or other command officer in crowd control or riot situations.

Teach

It would probably be more effective if there was actually some male equipment inside those skin-tight pants! Does a hit to the vagina area hurt as bad as we do?
:uhm:
Jerry

CaliFFL

john9001 wrote: »

A riot is a imminent threat. They forgot to teach their little snowflakes that in Poly Si class.

It's all fun and games until somebody gets hurt.

Can a riot be a single person? I see one guy and a bunch of people calmly shooting video.

CaliFFL

Jay wrote: »

So; A riot. A rioter. Wearing a gas mask and trying to send a gas canister back at the police. Preventing the police from dispersing a riot. Not a imminent threat. Gocha.

The quote from the link provided by Zee answers the question perfectly. See number 20. If the guy in that video wasn't displaying active aggression and had just displayed an overt act of assault, I'm not sure anything I can provide will be helpful for you. But I knew that would be the case anyway.

The guy kicked a can. He didn't throw it at anyone. He kicked it and returned to his position. The cops are wearing masks, riot gear, armor, AV's, helicopters, and fat boy with a water bottle and poor kicking skills is the imminent threat.

I stand by my first statement: They shot him as punishment for kicking the can, NOT for being a threat.

Diver43

Here we go again with the anti Cop crap that almost got this section closed down

Green Mtn. Boy

Priceless ! GMB

Teach

Hmmmmm- - - - -Gatorade bottles filled with urine, and Coke cans full of concrete- - - - -VS a few rubber bullets or pepper balls. Sounds like a pretty good response, no matter where the scumbags get hit. When Jihad Jamal and Mayhem Mohammed start emptying 30 round AK magazines from rooftops above one of these demonstrations, I'll bet they won't care which side gets hit, or where the bullets land! That's bound to happen soon. A few hundred demonstrators and the cops trying to keep them under control equates to a jihadist free-fire zone!
Jerry

Buford

Well The way I see it never be on the front lines during a protest you only get pushed into a bad situation and when the gas containers come out it's time to go home or back up. You can't fix stupid, what would one think is going to happen when you kick a gas canister back at the police.

Teach

The best place to be is at home watching TV while somebody plays whack-a-mole with the idiots. It doesn't matter if the guys doing the whacking are cops or demonstrators with a different viewpoint, as long as somebody gives them a few bumps and bruises to nurse. Maybe the next time George Soros offers some chump change to a bunch of professional rabble-rousers, he won't have as many takers.
Jerry

tennmike

CaliFFL wrote: »

The guy kicked a can. He didn't throw it at anyone. He kicked it and returned to his position. The cops are wearing masks, riot gear, armor, AV's, helicopters, and fat boy with a water bottle and poor kicking skills is the imminent threat.

I stand by my first statement: They shot him as punishment for kicking the can, NOT for being a threat.

There's an excellent reason he kicked that can rather than picking it up and throwing it. Tear gas canisters get pretty hot when activated. Not something anyone with two brain cells to rub together would willingly do without insulated gloves.

Rule 1 for riots when you don't want to get your butt handed to you by the police is to follow directions. If they say disperse, then dispersing is a pretty good way to not get a whoopin' by said cops. He wasn't in any act of protesting; he was in the act of defying lawful orders. Don't like how the cops treated you? Handle that with a lawyer in a court. Trying to be Billy Bad Boy on the street with the cops isn't conducive to a good outcome for the protester.

Want to see how riots used to be handled, go watch a video of the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago. Like this one.

Go to 1:45 mark in the video to see how snowflakes like that used to be dealt with. Compared to that, I'd say the cops in this instance showed a great deal of restraint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUKzSsVmnpY

Jayhawker

CaliFFL wrote: »

Looks like battery to me. If he'd been shot while approaching the canister, fine. Shooting him after returning to his position? Clear intent to cause injury....

At first I thought you were being sarcastic.....then I realized you were actually making an issue of this.....

tennmike

If you want to see something really funny in that video Jack posted in the original post, read the name on the back of the red shirt of the guy that helps the protester off the street. Glad I wasn't drinking anything when I noticed it! :rotflmao:

Buford

Jayhawker wrote: »

I wonder how long it takes to collect enough pee for a demonstration?

Well you keep a good supply of beer coming my friends and I could arm a very large demonstration over the weekend.

Linefinder

I don't post here much, and don't plan on doing so.

That said, I'll cut to the chase.....

800 yard pdogs notwithstanding, I'd have loved to have made that shot. It would have been one of the better ones.

Mike